I still think you are failing to acknowledge how good [Aged Winter Cloak] is on account of it being itemized with a stat that is not typically favored. At no point when I had mine did Zulajin's spreadsheet put it behind [Hammerhead Sharkskin Cloak]. I've since grabbed [Drape of the Deadly Foe], but I wish I hadn't disenchanted my AWC, as I would enchant it for PvP now. = (
Yeah, if you aren't Expertise capped as Mutilate, I would focus red sockets on Expertise until you hit that mark. Then at that point you can determine whether you want Agi or AP :P. Expertise seems to generally line up close to Agi/AP in terms of EP values, and it has the unquantifiable effect of RNG reduction, which is why I've always been a fan of capping Expertise.
On another note -- I've updated the OP to be a bit more clear and accurate given the changes in mechanics, modeling, and my understanding of the gear choices.
I wont claim to know about Mutilate Expertise because I dont but...
1) When I plug in Exp gems instead of AP gems with my Mut build I get a dps loss. This is with low Expertise (No Recluse)
2)When i plug in Exp gems instead of AP with BiS Mutilate gear I get a dps loss.
3)With no recluse now as combat, I run with lower than capped Exp. I see a dps loss in the sheets and in WWS if i gem Expertise to cap it.
Now I know there is instability in less than capped expertise, I feel this during my rotations. My dps does not reflect this as I keep losing expertise through upgrades and I continue to gain dps.
I just got a second WD this week so I plan on jumping to Mutilate next week since the other Rogue is Combat in my raid. We have very bad luck with dagger drops until 2 weeks ago. When I do switch, I have the option to gem Exp, but the sheets advise against it. Can you please explain your reasoning? If it is instability in the rotation would the sheet not calculate that? Afterall it seemed to calculate it with my Combat spec.
He did say it was an "unquantifiable effect of RNG reduction". I think you just need to ask yourself: how much does it suck ass to have your Envenom dodged when there is only a second left on your SnD?
Having Expertise capped just gives you a lot more wiggle room when it comes to running tighter cycles. Mutilate doesn't have an Adrenaline Rush to kick start it when your cycles falter, so a lot of rogues feel that anything you can do to prevent that from happening without sacrificing significant DPS is worth doing. Stacking Expertise until capped falls into that category.
I wont claim to know about Mutilate Expertise because I dont but...
1) When I plug in Exp gems instead of AP gems with my Mut build I get a dps loss. This is with low Expertise (No Recluse)
2)When i plug in Exp gems instead of AP with BiS Mutilate gear I get a dps loss.
3)With no recluse now as combat, I run with lower than capped Exp. I see a dps loss in the sheets and in WWS if i gem Expertise to cap it.
Now I know there is instability in less than capped expertise, I feel this during my rotations. My dps does not reflect this as I keep losing expertise through upgrades and I continue to gain dps.
I just got a second WD this week so I plan on jumping to Mutilate next week since the other Rogue is Combat in my raid. We have very bad luck with dagger drops until 2 weeks ago. When I do switch, I have the option to gem Exp, but the sheets advise against it. Can you please explain your reasoning? If it is instability in the rotation would the sheet not calculate that? Afterall it seemed to calculate it with my Combat spec.
I agree with Verre. The spreadsheet shows a dps loss if I replace any of my AP gems with expertise. In fact, it actually shows a dps gain when I replace my one expertise gem with AP. (The gain is only .02 which is why I haven't bothered to re-gem.) Having said that, when I add food buffs I find I get a bigger DPS gain from expertise food than I get from AP, despite getting more DPS from AP with my gems.
On a related note, I do not believe I was actually debating AP vs. agility, thank you very much.
I wont claim to know about Mutilate Expertise because I dont but...
1) When I plug in Exp gems instead of AP gems with my Mut build I get a dps loss. This is with low Expertise (No Recluse)
2)When i plug in Exp gems instead of AP with BiS Mutilate gear I get a dps loss.
3)With no recluse now as combat, I run with lower than capped Exp. I see a dps loss in the sheets and in WWS if i gem Expertise to cap it.
Now I know there is instability in less than capped expertise, I feel this during my rotations. My dps does not reflect this as I keep losing expertise through upgrades and I continue to gain dps.
I just got a second WD this week so I plan on jumping to Mutilate next week since the other Rogue is Combat in my raid. We have very bad luck with dagger drops until 2 weeks ago. When I do switch, I have the option to gem Exp, but the sheets advise against it. Can you please explain your reasoning? If it is instability in the rotation would the sheet not calculate that? Afterall it seemed to calculate it with my Combat spec.
Are you using Vulajin's spreadsheet instead of Aldriana's. I don't believe Vulajin's models cycle interruption due to dodges since it uses a static cycle. I know Aldriana's accounts for expertise to an extent, but I'm not sure if it accounts for the ability to refresh hfb later when there is no risk of a dodge.
The spreadsheet doesn't take into account an Envenom being dodged with <2s left on your SnD and causing your SnD to drop. You can mitigate the risk by Envenoming earlier, but sometimes other factors in your cycle can make that difficult. Or a Mutilate gets dodged at the wrong time. It's those RNG situations that make Expertise capping desirable in my opinion.
The spreadsheet calculates that you will have a 100% uptime on SnD even if you have low Expertise; but in my experience this simply is not true. It's something that you'll really only run into when you've run the cycle extensively. I like the peace of mind that I can Envenom at <2s and not have to worry.
It will depend on other factors, but in general I have seen that in the Spreadsheet, AP vs. Expertise vs. Agi is very close, close enough such that I will always pick Expertise if I'm not capped.
For Combat, capping expertise is not nearly as important because of Surprise Attacks.
While capping expertise is less beneficial to a Combat Rogue, it does have the hidden benefit of preventing energy capping due to dodges. This has happened to me a couple times, obviously more often when AR is up, but a dodged Sinister Strike only costs ?8? energy, and it's pretty easy to gain up to 42 energy during the global, 55 with AR, if CP procs twice. This is especially bad if it is the SS before a rupture, since rupture will be free after RS, and you can regen+CP proc during the rupture global as well, easily capping your energy.
Does that matter though? Capping your energy when you can't do anything about it -- either because you are out of range by necessity or because of multiple Combat Potency procs or dodged specials -- is not the same thing as letting your energy cap when you could be spamming your primary combo point generator.
Assume there are going to be times when your energy will cap for the reasons mentioned... does mitigating a very small percentage of those times outweigh increasing the damage you deal with every other attack that does land? Personally, I'd be more concerned with the loss of damage from dodged specials than the failure to expend energy, and the spreadsheets definitely account for that in their calculations. I mean, isn't that the whole point?
I guess I just wonder how relevant that benefit is, hidden or not.
Does that matter though? Capping your energy when you can't do anything about it -- either because you are out of range by necessity or because of multiple Combat Potency procs or dodged specials -- is not the same thing as letting your energy cap when you could be spamming your primary combo point generator.
Assume there are going to be times when your energy will cap for the reasons mentioned... does mitigating a very small percentage of those times outweigh increasing the damage you deal with every other attack that does land? Personally, I'd be more concerned with the loss of damage from dodged specials than the failure to expend energy, and the spreadsheets definitely account for that in their calculations. I mean, isn't that the whole point?
I guess I just wonder how relevant that benefit is, hidden or not.
The spreadsheet assumes you will use every bit of energy that you gain during a fight. There are of course unavoidable capping situations, I was simply stating there is a hidden benefit to expertise for not only Mutilate, but Combat as well, however small it may be. I am finding it difficult to stay under the cap with WEx anyways, so it shouldn't be much of a concern.
Combat the biggest benefit I've found for expertise is if you're running a 3 finisher cycle, where a global or a dodge can mean you end up having to skip a finisher or do something non-optimal. In a 2 finisher cycle, I didn't rate expertise really as worth much of a damn.
I've looked around a bit about this, and have not seen it discussed. If it was and I missed it, just point me at what I missed, and I'll say thanks. In any case, I am curious about a trinket from Saph the Extract of Necromantic Power, [Extract of Necromantic Power] . It seems like it would be good for a Rogue, and comments about it seem to indicate it procs off not only Deadly Poison, but also rupture and garrote. There was mention elsewhere of a 15 sec internal CD. How would this stack up against the other top end trinkets? I already have Fury of the Five Flights and Mirror of truth.
I've looked around a bit about this, and have not seen it discussed. If it was and I missed it, just point me at what I missed, and I'll say thanks. In any case, I am curious about a trinket from Saph the Extract of Necromantic Power, [Extract of Necromantic Power] . It seems like it would be good for a Rogue, and comments about it seem to indicate it procs off not only Deadly Poison, but also rupture and garrote. There was mention elsewhere of a 15 sec internal CD. How would this stack up against the other top end trinkets? I already have Fury of the Five Flights and Mirror of truth.
Denia
I couldn't speak for whether DP can actually proc it or not, Garrote and Rupture most definitely cannot because they are not spells. Even in the event that the tooltip is misleading and they can proc the trinket, it has an internal CD, and isn't going to be remotely useful for a Rogue over the other trinkets already established as the best options.
Last edited by Palidus41 : 01/30/09 at 4:42 PM.
Reason: Clarity
I couldn't speak for whether DP can actually proc it or not, Garrote and Rupture most definitely cannot because they are not spells. Even in the event that the tooltip is misleading and they can proc the trinket, it has an internal CD, and isn't going to be remotely useful for a Rogue over the other trinkets already established as the best options.
Pretty sure the comments on Wowhead say that it procs off of rupture/garrote/DP, but yeah, I wouldn't imagine it being more useful than our current best trinkets.
If you're updating the OP, perhaps add in the Combat section that [Calamity's Grasp] MH with [Hailstorm] OH is a very viable Fists/Sword build. That combo is beating out any Fist/Dagger I can throw at it minus a [Webbed Death].
Build is standard Fists/Sword with 5/5 CQC and 4/5 Sword Spec.
This is a good alternative for those who are in the same boat as I am (Our raid has yet to see a Webbed Death drop).
Actually, it comes out to be a bit higher DPS if you put 5/5 Sword Spec, and 1/2 imp s&d. This is of course when using the s&d glyph for increased time. Speccing this way, according to the spreadsheet, actually brought [Hailstorm] ahead of [Webbed Death] for a combat OH.
Actually, it comes out to be a bit higher DPS if you put 5/5 Sword Spec, and 1/2 imp s&d. This is of course when using the s&d glyph for increased time. Speccing this way, according to the spreadsheet, actually brought [Hailstorm] ahead of [Webbed Death] for a combat OH.
Is this misinformation, or can you explain how you got that result? I don't want to assume, but you can consider me skeptical. I can't imagine 1% chance to proc an offhand sword hit is more valuable than 25% more SnD uptime.
According to Vulajin's Roguecraft LK 0.4.4 spreadsheet, with my gear, [Calamity's Grasp]/[Hailstorm] with 2/2 Imp. SnD and 4/5 Sword Spec., running a 3+s/5r/5e cycle absolutely crushes the same setup with 1/2 Imp. SnD and 5/5 Sword Spec. It also beats (by a much closer margin, around 15 raid buffed DPS) [Calamity's Grasp]/[Webbed Death] with the four points from Sword Spec. thrown back into utility talents. I dunno what you guys are wearing or doing to make Webbed Death come out ahead of Hailstorm, but I'm not doing the same thing, apparently. All the different tweaks I've tried still produce the same result: Hailstorm is better than Webbed Death as a combat offhand coupled with Calamity's Grasp.
Is this misinformation, or can you explain how you got that result? I don't want to assume, but you can consider me skeptical. I can't imagine 1% chance to proc an offhand sword hit is more valuable than 25% more SnD uptime.
That would work in the 7/51/13 spec with 4s/5r cycles.
I've looked around a bit about this, and have not seen it discussed. If it was and I missed it, just point me at what I missed, and I'll say thanks. In any case, I am curious about a trinket from Saph the Extract of Necromantic Power, [Extract of Necromantic Power] . It seems like it would be good for a Rogue, and comments about it seem to indicate it procs off not only Deadly Poison, but also rupture and garrote. There was mention elsewhere of a 15 sec internal CD. How would this stack up against the other top end trinkets? I already have Fury of the Five Flights and Mirror of truth.
I did some napkin math. It seems it is worse than [Mirror of Truth] even if we assume a 15 sec proc time which is impossible.
Is this misinformation, or can you explain how you got that result? I don't want to assume, but you can consider me skeptical. I can't imagine 1% chance to proc an offhand sword hit is more valuable than 25% more SnD uptime.
According to Vulajin's Roguecraft LK 0.4.4 spreadsheet, with my gear, [Calamity's Grasp]/[Hailstorm] with 2/2 Imp. SnD and 4/5 Sword Spec., running a 3+s/5r/5e cycle absolutely crushes the same setup with 1/2 Imp. SnD and 5/5 Sword Spec. It also beats (by a much closer margin, around 15 raid buffed DPS) [Calamity's Grasp]/[Webbed Death] with the four points from Sword Spec. thrown back into utility talents. I dunno what you guys are wearing or doing to make Webbed Death come out ahead of Hailstorm, but I'm not doing the same thing, apparently. All the different tweaks I've tried still produce the same result: Hailstorm is better than Webbed Death as a combat offhand coupled with Calamity's Grasp.
I've found the same results as you, CG/HS w/ 4/5 sword spec 2/2imp SND and a 3s/5r/5e cycle will produce the highest DPS from all my testing. I can only assume that anyone who finds differently is using an inferior rotation.
Just a heads up: I plugged LPC into Aldriana's latest spreadsheet, and if you use LPC/SR, it looks better to put SR in the mh with DP and LPC in the oh. The extra poison dps due to finishers doesn't seem to outweigh the damage lost from the dual-wield penalty between SR and LPC.
Also note that WD/SR is only 1 dps ahead of SR/WD, so it may be better for you to use SR mh there as well, but WD/WD is still the best.
Try to change the poisons while using Hailstorm and calamity's grasp. So deadly on OH and WP on MH. Made a nice difference for me.
I'm using 4/5 Sword specc and 2/2 SnD (15/51/5). 5/5/5 cycle and BF glyph.
14 dps more with 3/5/5 cycle and snd glyph.
another 8 dps more with 7/51/13 and bf glyph using a 4s/5r cycle, 1/2 snd and 5/5 sword specc, but i feel like loosing alot of combo points or have to cut every running snd while using this cycle.
But everything changes if you dont have mangle or trauma in ur raid. the 2nd specc comes ahead then.
Try to change the poisons while using Hailstorm and calamity's grasp. So deadly on OH and WP on MH. Made a nice difference for me.
I'm using 4/5 Sword specc and 2/2 SnD (15/51/5). 5/5/5 cycle and BF glyph.
14 dps more with 3/5/5 cycle and snd glyph.
another 8 dps more with 7/51/13 and bf glyph using a 4s/5r cycle, 1/2 snd and 5/5 sword specc, but i feel like loosing alot of combo points or have to cut every running snd while using this cycle.
But everything changes if you dont have mangle or trauma in ur raid. the 2nd specc comes ahead then.
How would 7/51/13, with higher rupture uptime and more rupture damage win with no bleed debuff?
Just a heads up: I plugged LPC into Aldriana's latest spreadsheet, and if you use LPC/SR, it looks better to put SR in the mh with DP and LPC in the oh. The extra poison dps due to finishers doesn't seem to outweigh the damage lost from the dual-wield penalty between SR and LPC.
Also note that WD/SR is only 1 dps ahead of SR/WD, so it may be better for you to use SR mh there as well, but WD/WD is still the best.
Interesting to know, I guess I'll swap em back then.
I seem to have played with Vulajin's spreadsheet a lot and the optimal DPS I have achieved was 4909.664005
Human, using 3s/5r/5e with Rupture, SS, and SnD glyphs and 2/2 Imp. SnD and 4/5 Sword Spec. I am actually an engineer but the spreadsheet is not updated for the new glove enchant so I just opted for Crusher.
01/29/09, 3:35 PM
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