In my experience, you should gem to your 238 poison hit cap regardless of what the sheet tells you. A few nights ago I did a 10 man with being slightly under poison hit cap (around 207 hit) and the poison dosing was abysmal. I still managed about 4.7k DPS but the difference was noticable. I would have 4-5 combo points and 1-2 DP stacks.
Suffice to say, I regemmed immediately afterward ignoring what theoretical maximum the sheet stated.
In my experience, you should gem to your 238 poison hit cap regardless of what the sheet tells you. A few nights ago I did a 10 man with being slightly under poison hit cap (around 207 hit) and the poison dosing was abysmal. I still managed about 4.7k DPS but the difference was noticable. I would have 4-5 combo points and 1-2 DP stacks.
Suffice to say, I regemmed immediately afterward ignoring what theoretical maximum the sheet stated.
If you were in a 10 man its very possible that you did not have a moonkin or shadow priest in your raid to provide the 3% spell hit which drops the poison cap below 315, so in fact you may not have been only slightly under the hit cap, you may have been substantially under the hit cap, which explains the poor poison stacking.
However in a 25 man raid it is very likely you have either a moonkin or a shadow priest in which case the hit cap is lower, and if you are alliance it is lower still. Generally unless you guild runs 10 mans without a moonkin/spriest, and is having trouble meeting the dps requirements in those ten mans, you should not be overly worried about getting to the 315 poison cap.
If you were in a 10 man its very possible that you did not have a moonkin or shadow priest in your raid to provide the 3% spell hit which drops the poison cap below 315, so in fact you may not have been only slightly under the hit cap, you may have been substantially under the hit cap, which explains the poor poison stacking.
However in a 25 man raid it is very likely you have either a moonkin or a shadow priest in which case the hit cap is lower, and if you are alliance it is lower still. Generally unless you guild runs 10 mans without a moonkin/spriest, and is having trouble meeting the dps requirements in those ten mans, you should not be overly worried about getting to the 315 poison cap.
Incorrect, we had a boomkin in the group for imp ff debuff.
Even being slightly under with optimal gear sets will drop significant portions of damage based on poor DP stacking during very quick envenom cycles.
Edit: It should also be noted that Aldrianna's spreadsheet assumes you have a dranei in the group and have a passive hit buff. This appears to skew the outcome of EP values for hordies with hit. As I recall reading the combat spreadsheet currently allows you to disable this, but the mutilate one does not unless you show hidden pages and delve through.
Even being slightly under with optimal gear sets will drop significant portions of damage based on poor DP stacking during very quick envenom cycles.
Edit: It should also be noted that Aldrianna's spreadsheet assumes you have a dranei in the group and have a passive hit buff. This appears to skew the outcome of EP values for hordies with hit. As I recall reading the combat spreadsheet currently allows you to disable this, but the mutilate one does not unless you show hidden pages and delve through.
The assumption of a Draenei in your group doesn't skew the EP values as much as you might think. In my sheet, with the alliance assumptions in and the default gear, I show poison hit as being 1.843 EP. When I remove that assumption to bring it in line with a horde rogue, I show poison hit as being 1.846 EP. So that buff only changes the EP weights by 0.003 EP, not a huge change.
Also, if you are slightly below the poison hit cap and having trouble with DP stacking, you might consider going 3/3 Master Poisoner. It's still up in the air as to which is better in a perfect fight, but as some anecdotal evidence even with my crappy gear ( > 4% under the spell hit cap) I have had no problems stacking DP with 3/3 MP.
The assumption of a Draenei in your group doesn't skew the EP values as much as you might think. In my sheet, with the alliance assumptions in and the default gear, I show poison hit as being 1.843 EP. When I remove that assumption to bring it in line with a horde rogue, I show poison hit as being 1.846 EP. So that buff only changes the EP weights by 0.003 EP, not a huge change.
Also, if you are slightly below the poison hit cap and having trouble with DP stacking, you might consider going 3/3 Master Poisoner. It's still up in the air as to which is better in a perfect fight, but as some anecdotal evidence even with my crappy gear ( > 4% under the spell hit cap) I have had no problems stacking DP with 3/3 MP.
The difference I was citing was between poison hit cap and without poison hitcap. With appropriate hit (237-244) I've had no issues with DP dosing.
I think you're overstating the resist rate. If you have a 2-3% change to have your DP application resisted, while it's not optimal, it's not going to be a huge difference in the number of DP stacks you're going to typically get. It was most likely RNG wherin you just didn't get DP procs, or certain key buffs missing in your 10 man group.
Tried putting togheter a wish list with comfortable levels of hit and expertise (poison cap and expertise cap) and after alot of tinkering I came up with a set estimating 7564,5 DPS (above poison cap and with 211 expertise). I don't give any guarantees that it's remotely the best ofc but if anyone sees anything crazy feel free to point it out.
Mutilate gear set:
Mutilate/Combat Off-Hand: [Bladetwister] (The World of Warcraft Armory) (Freya25 Hard)
Mutilate Main-Hand: [Fang of Oblivion] (Steelbreaker25)
Ranged: [Siren's Cry] (Auriaya25)
Head: [Conqueror's Terrorblade Helmet] (Thorim25)
Neck: [Pendulum of Infinity] (General25 Hard)
Shoulder: [Shoulderpads of the Intruder] (Steelbreaker25)
Back: [Drape of the Faceless General] (General25 Hard Mode)
Chest: [Conqueror's Terrorblade Chest] (Hodir25)
Wrist: [Mechanist's Bindings] (Flame Leviathan25)
Hand: [Conqueror's Terrorblade Gauntlets] (Mimiron25)
Waist: Soul-Devouring Cinch (Yogg-Saron25 Hard)
Leg: [Conqueror's Terrorblade Legplates] (Freya25)
Feet: [Footpads of Silence] (Crafted)
Ring 1: [Brann's Signet Ring] (Algalon25 quest)
Ring 2: [Loop of the Agile] (Steelbreaker10)
Trinket 1: [Mjolnir Runestone] (Thorim10 Hard)
Trinket 2: [Blood of the Old God] (Yogg-Saron25)
Best combat trinkets seem to be (from what I have heard):
Trinket 1: [Mjolnir Runestone] (Thorim10 Hard)
Trinket 2: [Grim Toll] (Sapphiron :F)
Just throwin this out there, would Kinetic Ripper be a better offhand with Calamity's Grasp than Webbed Death? Its only .1secs slower, but its DPS is higher. Any thoughts?
Just throwin this out there, would Kinetic Ripper be a better offhand with Calamity's Grasp than Webbed Death? Its only .1secs slower, but its DPS is higher. Any thoughts?
With my gear (naxx25 with one ulduar 25 and some ulduar 10 mixed in) webbed death is better by not a huge, but noticeable. quickly playing around with some items in the spreadsheet shows that that is the case for pretty much every gear setup.
Tried putting togheter a wish list with comfortable levels of hit and expertise (poison cap and expertise cap) and after alot of tinkering I came up with a set estimating 7564,5 DPS (above poison cap and with 211 expertise). I don't give any guarantees that it's remotely the best ofc but if anyone sees anything crazy feel free to point it out.
-List of Stuff-
Swap out the tier legs for Legguards of Cunning Deception (YS 25 Hard), and Ring 2 for Godbane Signet (less expertise gems needed). As far as trinkets go, i've found that stacking the Runestone + Grim Toll comes out with a higher DPS than any other 2, but individually Grim Toll doesn't hold up to Greatness. Also, some of the socket bonuses are still undetermined so it's kind of hard to predict where you will be putting what gems for more optimal setup.
It would appear after some tinkering with Aldrianna's spreadsheet that the following is BiS for mutilate:
Helm: Midgard Serpent
Neck: Pendulum of Infinity
Shoulders: Conquerer's Terrorblade Pauldrons
Cloak: Drape of the Faceless General
Chest: Conquerer's Terrorblade Breastplate
Bracer: Mechanist Bindings
Glove: Conquerer's Terrorblade Gauntlets
Belt: Soul-Devouring Cinch
Legs: Conquerer's Terrorblade Legplates
Feet: Flamestalker Boots
Ring 1: Brann's Signet Ring
Ring 2: Loop of the Agile
Trinket 1: Mjolnir Runestone
Trinket 2: Blood of the Old God
Ranged: Siren's Call
Mainhand: Fang of Oblivion
Offhand: Bladetwister
Given this setup, and optimal gemming/enchanting, it appears the theoretical max dps of mutilate is 7157.8 DPS
I found a few of these items surprising. The fact that Flamestalker boots overtake Footpad's of Silence, the fact that Runestone (and Blood of the Old God) overtakes Greatness as well as the ranged weapon.
I tested it with all other max ilevel gear options and 4/5 t8, it appears the helm comes out on top of all other alternatives with the 4 piece.
Edit: I'm curious how you got your numbers. Based on what I'm seeing, the shoulder swap yields a DPS loss of roughly 6 DPS. (directed to strawberry)
It would appear after some tinkering with Aldrianna's spreadsheet that the following is BiS for mutilate:
Helm: Midgard Serpent
Neck: Pendulum of Infinity
Shoulders: Conquerer's Terrorblade Pauldrons
Cloak: Drape of the Faceless General
Chest: Conquerer's Terrorblade Breastplate
Bracer: Mechanist Bindings
Glove: Conquerer's Terrorblade Gauntlets
Belt: Soul-Devouring Cinch
Legs: Conquerer's Terrorblade Legplates
Feet: Flamestalker Boots
Ring 1: Brann's Signet Ring
Ring 2: Loop of the Agile
Trinket 1: Mjolnir Runestone
Trinket 2: Blood of the Old God
Ranged: Siren's Call
Mainhand: Fang of Oblivion
Offhand: Bladetwister
Given this setup, and optimal gemming/enchanting, it appears the theoretical max dps of mutilate is 7157.8 DPS
I found a few of these items surprising. The fact that Flamestalker boots overtake Footpad's of Silence, the fact that Runestone (and Blood of the Old God) overtakes Greatness as well as the ranged weapon.
I tested it with all other max ilevel gear options and 4/5 t8, it appears the helm comes out on top of all other alternatives with the 4 piece.
Edit: I'm curious how you got your numbers. Based on what I'm seeing, the shoulder swap yields a DPS loss of roughly 6 DPS. (directed to strawberry)
a little surprised on the helm myself. I know that the helm is going to lose some AP in 3.1.2, but whether the change will be enough to drop it behind t8.5 only time will tell. I believe that the AP on the helm itself has been dropped by 16, but that might change. But then again, 53 expertise is huge.
a little surprised on the helm myself. I know that the helm is going to lose some AP in 3.1.2, but whether the change will be enough to drop it behind t8.5 only time will tell. I believe that the AP on the helm itself has been dropped by 16, but that might change. But then again, 53 expertise is huge.
It wouldn't be hard to figure out how much of a loss it is. Unless math has since changed, that should be a hair over a 1DPS change for the helm's value. So instead of looking at a 7.8 DPS difference, at worse we'd be looking at a 5-6DPS or so difference between the helm and shoulders, which will still place it well ahead of both shoulder options.
Given this setup, and optimal gemming/enchanting, it appears the theoretical max dps of mutilate is 7157.8 DPS
I found a few of these items surprising. The fact that Flamestalker boots overtake Footpad's of Silence, the fact that Runestone (and Blood of the Old God) overtakes Greatness as well as the ranged weapon.
I tested it with all other max ilevel gear options and 4/5 t8, it appears the helm comes out on top of all other alternatives with the 4 piece.
Edit: I'm curious how you got your numbers. Based on what I'm seeing, the shoulder swap yields a DPS loss of roughly 6 DPS. (directed to strawberry)
I'm not sure where you're getting these numbers from. I put in the items exactly as you stated, and am seeing an estimated DPS of 7507.5.
Furthermore, if I take that setup, swap the helm with the tier helm, swap the shoulders with Intruder, fix the gems, I get 7531.0 DPS. That seems to be the best combo I can come up with.
I'm not sure where you're getting these numbers from. I put in the items exactly as you stated, and am seeing an estimated DPS of 7507.5.
Furthermore, if I take that setup, swap the helm with the tier helm, swap the shoulders with Intruder, fix the gems, I get 7531.0 DPS. That seems to be the best combo I can come up with.
Perhaps you're using the 51/7/13 build? I have not played around with the options for that yet.
Perhaps you're using the 51/7/13 build? I have not played around with the options for that yet.
My above post was utilizing 51/13/7
Switching to 51/13/7 changes the Intruder setup to be 7490.6, so it's only like a 40 DPS difference.
EDIT: Oh, and I see that switching to Footpads of Silence of Flamestalker appears to be a DPS gain of about 30, though it depends a little bit on how the socket bonuses work out (which in general is something the sheet doesn't exactly handle well).
Switching to 51/13/7 changes the Intruder setup to be 7490.6, so it's only like a 40 DPS difference.
Yeah, I just tested your gear options and found the identical to be true. I had Dranaei disabled and enabled it, which made a minor difference, though nothing near the 75xx you're reporting. I also had it set to gems that I would use (not being a JC) and altered it to reflect the contrary, which didn't make a massive difference either.
With these setups, I get Mutilate at 7593.3 and Combat at 7858.8. Thus, for sustained DPS on nonMurderable fights, Combat enjoys about a 3.5% advantage; with Murder, Mutilate will pull ahead by a slightly smaller margin (~2%). Note that the combat number won't exactly match what the released spreadsheet shows - I've been making some modeling tweaks to my personal copy with an eye towards the next release.
The astute observer will note that the Combat setup is punting on even some yellow socket bonuses. Yes, ArPen really is that good in high-end gear.
The astute observer will note that the Combat setup is punting on even some yellow socket bonuses. Yes, ArPen really is that good in high-end gear.
Wait... so the value of Agility gets even higher going from T7 to T8, but then is completely eclipsed by Armor Penetration anyway? I have no reason to doubt you, but it's still really hard to believe that ArPen would beat out Agi as our most valuable stat with everything it provides. Can you shed some light on the why?
05/06/09, 11:02 AM
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