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Old 02/10/09, 12:21 PM   #406
Grunge
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Rogue
 
Kor'gall (EU)
It depends if Ulduar will bring us one, two or three viable trinkets. But also consider the fact that you won't be alone going after these trinkets (even if there will be two), so investing in a Greatness card will mean that it will last at least in one slot for quite some time.
Then again with DMF over, you might want to think about it.
Next DMF is up in a month and who knows, maybe we'll see Ulduar earlier than that.

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Old 02/10/09, 12:33 PM   #407
Barlo
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Hydraxis
Originally Posted by Perini View Post
Are you asking for random, crystal-ball speculation or hoping that an incognito Blizzard employee (who you can trust to be just that) will give you an answer?
I was wondering if rogues who have been raiding longer than me could say if these trinkets remained viable for a long time from their experience with darkmoon cards in TBC and earlier. No reason to ASSume we are all idiots.

Thank you for your answer Grunge.

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Old 02/10/09, 12:48 PM   #408
AlphaQ
Banned
 
Human Mage
 
Frostwolf
Yesterday I picked up a Mark of Norgannon in hopes of a possible buff in 3.1 or maybe stacking haste will be the new premiere stat. Right now is it the most lackluster 226 item

Anyone else have thoughts on haste in 3.1?

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Old 02/10/09, 12:51 PM   #409
Feist-Mok
Im***est.
 
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Human Rogue
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by Barlo View Post
I was wondering if rogues who have been raiding longer than me could say if these trinkets remained viable for a long time from their experience with darkmoon cards in TBC and earlier. No reason to ASSume we are all idiots.

Thank you for your answer Grunge.
Darkmoon cards weren't very good for Rogues because we had access to the DST, along with a relatively overpowered T5 Class trinket. The closest analogue, the Blessings Deck, was far better for caster dps than us, and it did in fact last many of them well into BT.

Originally Posted by AlphaQ View Post
Yesterday I picked up a Mark of Norgannon in hopes of a possible buff in 3.1 or maybe stacking haste will be the new premiere stat. Right now is it the most lackluster 226 item

Anyone else have thoughts on haste in 3.1?
None of the announced changes affect the relative value of Haste in a positive direction.

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Old 02/10/09, 12:58 PM   #410
sedrikk
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Skywall
This will depend entirely on Blizzard. Prior to this, darkmoon cards were never very good for us. One of the first first trinket available in BC was [Dragonspine Trophy] from Gruul, and people were still using it in Sunwell. If Blizzard gives us a better trinket we will use it, if they dont it will last a while. Your guess is probably as good as anyones at this point in time.

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Old 02/10/09, 1:05 PM   #411
Inkm
Piston Honda
 
Human Rogue
 
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
Previous darkmoon cards have not been best in slot, there is no historical data to rely on to give any such answer.

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Old 02/16/09, 3:41 PM   #412
Rhysel
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Ravencrest
With the changes expected in 3.1 and the current changes in 3.9, are T7 Hat/Legs/Hands/Shoulders and best-in-slot Chest still considered best for mutilate?

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Old 02/16/09, 4:08 PM   #413
Grunge
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Rogue
 
Kor'gall (EU)
Yes, neither Frosted Adroit nor Leggings of the Honored won't become better.

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Old 02/18/09, 5:08 PM   #414
Sarvius
Don Flamenco
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Maiev
I have a question about combat post-3.0.9. I've seen a lot of numbers flying around about BiS and ideal combat setups (where before it was usually adroit, 4/5, thrusting, etc) and most of the spreadsheeted numbers seem low. As an orc rogue in BiS (alch/jc) I managed to peel 5651 dps out of the spreadsheet running 2s/5r/5e, CG/WD, adroit, thrusting, and grim toll and this is with minimal tinkering.

Is it possible that people are still running with 7/51/13 spec? 15/51/5 already eeked slightly ahead of serrated in BiS gear before, and after the SnD buff I should think it would be obvious that lethality would win. Faster attacks->more value for hit as potential poison dps->more combat potency (for both reasons)->more SS.

Net effect on rupture dps from 3.0.9=zilch. Net effect on poison dps (ignores armor component of serrated) and energy gain=pretty substantial.

Maybe I'm off-base with this, but it seems like the majority of the low numbers (people quoting ~5250-5400 as BiS combat dps) are coming from mut rogues who may be modeling off old combat theory. It should probably be more explicit amongst the community that 7/51/13 will no longer yield the best returns.

Edit: clarifying why I posted rather than just babbling.

Last edited by Sarvius : 02/18/09 at 5:58 PM.

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Old 02/19/09, 11:04 PM   #415
Simalo
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Llane
Originally Posted by Barlo View Post
I'm about to make the greatness deck (when the faire comes back to town) but was wondering how long the Greatness card will be viable as best in slot. Will it be quickly replaced in 25man Uldar or maintain its superiority.
First off, if you are combat spec, the greatness deck is not top 2 best in slot. Having the use trinkets such as loatheb's shadow and mark of norgannon to time them with blade flurry, speed pot, and lust/heroism will outweigh the effect of the greatness deck. As I just stated, currently the best in slot trinkets for me are loatheb's shadow and mark of norgannon.

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Old 02/20/09, 12:13 AM   #416
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
What's your basis for that assertion? Conventional wisdom says otherwise. Yes, the ability to time cooldowns against class cooldowns is useful and increases the value of these trinkets - but they are so far behind to start with, they are generally regarded to be inferior anyways. For instance, Blade Flurry increases your attack speed by 20%. This equates to, say, 15% more DPS while it's active - probably less, actually, but lets go with 15%. Thus, over a 2 min period, despite the fact that your Blade Flurry is only active for 12.5% of the time, you actually do 14.1% of your total DPS during it; thus, the value of the AP cooldown on Loatheb's Shadow is, to a first approximation, 122 AP assuming it is always used overlapping with Blade Flurry. Thus, it's better than Mirror of Truth only if your Mirror uptime is less than 12% - and in practice, Mirror uptime is 17-19%. Stacking AR and/or Killing Spree onto Loatheb's will increase it's value somewhat more, but it's nowhere near enough to make up the difference between it and Mirror, much less it and Greatness. Fundamentally: while cooldowns do give a significant damage boost while they're up, they account for a relatively small portion of your overall damage, and, as such, don't increase the value of activated trinkets enough to catch the proc trinkets.

Thus - unless you have some evidence, testing, or theorycraft that says otherwise - it's somewhat misleading to assert that MoN and LS are the best trinkets for you as combat, as all existing data indicates that Greatness, Mirror, and FotFF are all superior to both LS and MoN.

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Old 02/20/09, 1:17 AM   #417
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Simalo
First off, if you are combat spec, the greatness deck is not top 2 best in slot. Having the use trinkets such as loatheb's shadow and mark of norgannon to time them with blade flurry, speed pot, and lust/heroism will outweigh the effect of the greatness deck. As I just stated, currently the best in slot trinkets for me are loatheb's shadow and mark of norgannon.
Just to be completely explicit - on the side of people who think that stacking cooldowns does not magically make trinkets like LS and MoN better than their commonly-accepted value, we have as evidence a spreadsheet that actually models the exact implications of the ability to stack cooldowns. I would recommend having at least as much evidence on your side before you try to pass such assertions as fact.

Originally Posted by Enervate
Yep, still a fucking idiot.

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Old 02/20/09, 1:57 AM   #418
Latito
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Rogue
 
Lightbringer
Not to mention, you can always watch your buffs and use Flurry / Haste pot / etc while the trinket proc is up. It should generally line up at least partially with Hero/Lust.

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Old 02/20/09, 4:11 AM   #419
Onodrim
Piston Honda
 
Human Rogue
 
Aggramar (EU)
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Stacking AR and/or Killing Spree onto Loatheb's will increase it's value somewhat more, but it's nowhere near enough to make up the difference between it and Mirror, much less it and Greatness.
Your response was very well put, however, I'd still like to address a minor detail ever briefly. If I recall correctly (and it's entirely possible that I don't), Killing Spree precludes performing other special attacks in its 2 second duration, which would make Adrenaline Rush and Killing Spree come off somewhat disjointed and, as such, less than prudent to stack. Am I way off here?

I hate to stray a bit off topic, but since it's a direct reaction to what you write in this quote, I'd consider it taken out of context if I posted it elsewhere. Obviously, move this to wherever you see fit.

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Old 02/20/09, 4:11 PM   #420
Gilin
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Lothar
Originally Posted by Onodrim View Post
Your response was very well put, however, I'd still like to address a minor detail ever briefly. If I recall correctly (and it's entirely possible that I don't), Killing Spree precludes performing other special attacks in its 2 second duration, which would make Adrenaline Rush and Killing Spree come off somewhat disjointed and, as such, less than prudent to stack. Am I way off here?
You are correct that Killing Spree should not be used during AR, but I think what Aldriana meant was just about using AR and KS while buffed by Loatheb's trinket and not with each other.

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