Depends what you mean by "similar". ArPen stacking is certainly going to do more than other approaches, as enough ArPen gear to start the cascade is BIS even before you start stacking ArPen. So it's going to be less DPS not to. Not necessarily a *lot* less, but less.

Is it me or is Aldriana's BiS Mutilate Setup under Expertise Cap?

Is it worth replacing Godbane Signet for Loop of the Agile?
Bringing Expertise Rating to 215

Shouldpads of the Intruder - 47
Conqueror Breastplate - 76
Soul-D Cinch or B of T Assassin - 56 or 57
Godbane Signet - 36
Total: 215-216 Expertise Rating

From everything I've gathered, expertise ratings are more of a guidline, and based more on personal playstyle, making it an individuals choice to cap or not. I personally have chosen not to, simply because I run a little loser cycle, given that a lot of fights you can't rely on being able to stand in one place attacking one mob for long periods, and thus expertise is a little less valuable to me. Because of that I am only going to grab available gear if it makes sense in terms of EP, and not lose EP just to hit the cap.

So as a correction of my previous BIS list: I've come up with a few more improvements to the Combat setup. Turns out it wasn't stacking enough ArPen to be optimal (and no, I'm not kidding). DPS estimate is up to 7894.3 (or 7908.4 if you're a Blacksmith. Yes, JC/BS is now officially optimal).

Slot	Combat
Helm	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Helmet]
Helm Gems	16 ArPen + RED
Neck	Pendulum of Infinity
Neck Gems	27 ArPen
Shoulder	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Pauldrons]
Shoulder Gems	16 ArPen
Cloak	[Drape of the Faceless General]
Cloak Gems	16 ArPen + 27 ArPen
Chest	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Breastplate]
Chest Gems	16 ArPen x2
Bracers	[Fluxing Energy Coils]
Bracer Gems	16 ArPen
Gloves	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Gauntlets]
Glove Gems	20 agi
Belt	[Soul-Devouring Cinch]
Belt Gems	16ArPen x2
Legs	Legguards of Cunning Deception
Leg Gems	16 ArPen x3
Boots	[Footpads of Silence]
Boot Gems	16 ArPen + 27 ArPen
Ring1	Brann's Signet Ring
Ring1 Gems	16 ArPen
Ring2	Brann's Sealing Ring
Ring2 Gems	16 ArPen
Trinket1	[Mjolnir Runestone]
Trinket2	[Grim Toll]
Ranged	[Twirling Blades]
Ranged Socket	16 ArPen
MH	[Golden Saronite Dragon]
MH Gem	16 ArPen
OH	Bladetwister
OH Gems	16 ArPen

Note that the exact optimal socketing might depend on the socket bonuses on Brann's rings and Bladetwister - if any of them have ArPen socket bonuses, it might be worth using the Prismatic gems to get them. But, assuming they have anything else, this is probably optimal.

Now, you're probably looking at that and wondering why it's socketing prismatic gems in yellow sockets and red gems in blue sockets. All I can say is: that's the way it works out. The difference between yellow and red sockets is becoming large enough that dropping from a red gem to a yellow gem turns out to be more than most socket bonuses in one-socket items. So this comes out ahead.

How long did you choose the fight duration to be?

After reading about the infinities in the ArPen formula, I decided I'd try to see how much it's currently possible to stack if you do so to the exclusion of all other stats. As it turns out, a Rogue can get pretty high (I think the calc maxed out at ~260%) but Warrior can reach around 275% thanks to the bonus from Battle Stance and some Plate items with more ArPen. I do cheat a bit, as I'm confining the player to ZA for the last 11%.

Calculations can be found in this post.

I plan to adjust the list for Rogue when I get a chance. The max ArPen I was able to find from Rogue weapons was Mace Spec + Blackout Truncheon (2 gems) + Blade of the Unrequited (3 gems). The main thing I'm curious about is if one could feasibly approach 300% with the higher ilvl gear likely to be found in Icecrown. It could prove interesting if the scaling isn't toned down or capped before then.

Edit: Was just reading over the post again and noticed [The Dusk Blade]. Offhanding that, you could do a [Blackout Truncheon] MH, going from 84 ArPen to 32, but the 465 ArPen (36.30%) would push you over the 300% mark in my Warrior example. Adding this to my calculation post.

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Ulduar 10-Player Hard Mode Weapons Update
Obviously this change won't affect best-in-slot, which come from 25-man hard modes, but it does seem like it will change some of the choices before that. [The Masticator] will likely become much better, as will [Serilas, Blood Blade of Invar One-Arm]. I guess we'll know for sure when screenshots of the updated items are released, but it seems like the middle-tier upgrades will be changing up their positions a bit.

I'd say the Masticator will easily be the best weapon outside of 25man Hardmodes given its stat allocation, 179 dps, and 2.7 speed. Keep in mind Combatant's Bootblade will also get bumped to 179 dps. Pushes that combo well above Malice/Nightblade and other options like Vulmir/etc.

2x Brann's Sealing Ring? Possible? Isn't it a quest reward? Don't think its possible to do the Quest more then once.

Is there any "magic number" how much arpen is needed to be stronger then agi? I love theorycrafting too, but at the moment i think it is impossible to get the complete list of gear in a guild which is not "hardore-raiding", what means that if i am trying to optimize my gear and trying to find the best way to do most dps the list is not what i need. Thats ok because it is a BIS list, but i want to optimize my gear and stop dreaming about equipment
First i read that if i got both trinkets (grim toll and mjolnir runestone) every point arpen more, even in your sockets is more powerful then agi, is that true or is there a missunderstanding on my side?

1 Brann's ring is from 10-man, the other from 25.

I am currently running with calamity's grasp and a lpc as a combat rogue:
(The World of Warcraft Armory (Sometimes link seems to fail, so use alt code 0232 fpr the e to manually input name)).

I just noticed that Namlak's got a stat change recently (stealth change?) and now with this plus the change to poison ppm and the added significance of arpen, would it be a better offhand choice for a combat rogue (generally speaking) then the Lpc ?

I only ask because i'm having issues hacking either it or the lpc into the available spreadsheets without errors occurring ( sheets don't even model the lpc 1.3 speed at all).

New stats:

Copy In-Game Link
Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker
Binds when equipped
One-HandDagger
150 - 280 DamageSpeed 1.50
(143.3 damage per second)
Requires Level 80
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 32.
Equip: Improves hit rating by 32.
Equip: Increases your armor penetration rating by 32.
Equip: Improves haste rating by 32.

Pride is a decent Enhance shammy starter OH. I guess it could be used in weapon swap FoK macros to increase damage done by FoK.

Aldriana- when weighing ArP for Mutilate, did you consider getting to an equivalency point (without favored blades, of course) at which Eviscerate might be the stronger finisher than envenom given the lack of removing a full deadly poison stack from the target?

Granted that the envenom buff and IP being PPM-based now makes that less of an issue with 'appropriate' energy pooling, I'm curious if you tried to work up an alternate cycle for the former? Given that the new "no elimination of Deadly Poison upon using Envenom" quality of Master Poisoner makes it equivalent to Turn the Tables, it would seem to be a fairly significant increase.

Similarly, comparing glyphs of Eviscerate, under the former conditions, against the standard Mutilate build glyphs?

I'm terrible at cycle-building in Excel, or I'd do this myself, I'm just curious if it's possible to get to a point such that ArP is almost as useful for Mutilate as it is for combat (assuming both trinkets, of course).

So definately not viable for Rogues.... Thank you for clearing that up for me.

So, I haven't run the numbers on this recently, but my expectation is that it winds up somewhat behind the traditional Mutilate setup. First, it's worth noting that Envenom doesn't really cost you poison damage - you lose some minute amount of Deadly Poison damage, but you gain a bunch if Instant Poison damage - so in the end, you come out ahead. Thus, I would be quite shocked if Eviscerate replacing Envenom straight up results in a DPS increase at any remotely reasonable gear level. What was historically worth considering in that respect was IIV setups, but the value of those are diminished somewhat by the 2/5 T8 bonus. Now, with enough ArPen, this might change, of course; I admit I haven't run the numbers recently. But my instinct is to say it probably isn't enough to catch up - the situation where one takes two significant DPS nerfs in the hope that they synergize to put you ahead is, in general, not something that works out. But if someone can has napkinmath or whatever to convince me otherwise, I might be persuaded to put some time into more detailed modeling.

I think what it comes down to is that with all the poison talents it gets, Mut just runs with a lot more elemental damage than combat; as such, ArPen is necessarily going to be worth less.

My current neck is [Fool's Trial] and I now have enough badges to purchase [Broach of the Wailing Night]. Pawn has [Broach of the Wailing Night] rated lower then [Fool's Trial], so I'm not convinced I should spend my badges on the neck.

I wasn't able to pick up the quest item from Sapphiron to get [Favor of the Dragon Queen] from 25s but I did get it from 10s so I have [Pendant of the Dragonsworn].

While Pendulum of Infinity is BiS it will be a while before I'm able to acquire it, but [Seed of Budding Carnage] is more easily obtainable.

So what I'd like is advice on what I should concerning a neck piece?

In regards to the Engineering glove enchant - Hyperspeed accelerators & the potent proc combo of Grim toll and Mjolnir runestone.

Would you say that with the enchant being on a similar cooldown that it would make the enchant a bit more powerful if you could allign the haste "use" with the double proc?

The reason i ask is iv'e spent the last few days wondering what is the best use of CD's to use during the proc.

At this point in time i usually use Killing spree (followed by BF/AR) on the first GT/MR proc then a speed pot on the second followed by whatever cooldown is available for the following procs. Having the glove enchant could be quite convenient you could see a rotation of KS, Gloves, speed pot, Gloves.

I guess its a double discussion:

1) does engineering glove enchant become more potent (and better than Blacksmithing) if you could time it to get more burst dmg during a double trinket proc
2) what would be the perfect rotation of CD's to use. with and without engineering.

I think the right combination could improve DPS ALOT, obviously i havnt done alot of theory crafting on it so i though i might bring to the people to see what great minds can come up with.

Basically putting a quick stop to the stacking armor pen before it got out of control. This (when/if it goes official) will probably change a lot of BIS setups.

You would have to consult the spreadsheet on this. My findings have been that with best-in-slot Ulduar gear, not including any hard mode loot, [Malice] + [Rune-Etched Nightblade] is 5 DPS more than [Insanity's Grip] + [Golem-Shard Sticker] in a 15/51/5 setup.

I'd presume this makes AP or AGI the preferred gemming again, then.

Great list. But out of curiosity, how high a % is the total armor penetration with that setup? With / without the trinket procs.
Reason I ask is a recent blue post: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Armor Penetratation - Lack of a Cap?

As mentioned by lokar as well, this could be cause for concern.
Combat maces - for as far as that spec was viable ( [Vulmir, the Northern Tempest] [Bloodcrush Cudgel] ) until you get access to better hard mode weapons, is going to be hit the hardest by this due to the mace talent giving 15% ArP.

Basically, if this change gets implemented CQC combat should then aim to gem for Agi and either get as close to 100% as possible without using proccing trinkets, or aim at a number below that so trinket procs won't go over 100%. I would expect the former, since there are upgrades available for the trinkets. ( [Blood of the Old God] + [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] )

Was doing some math on it earlier after i read the post on mmo-champion. The trinket procs put it well beyond 100%


If the 2 trinkets proc together it is close to 100% alone