Giloran

Even as Mut without stacking any ArP, I'm getting 6dps more out of [Blood of the Old God] & [Mjolnir Runestone] than [Blood of the Old God] & [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] with BiS gear.
I assume the difference will be even greater for Combat.

However, I think your point is valid, just wanted to point out DC:G is not an upgrade to MR.

 

◊ chalon

Yeah, my guess would be you would want to stick with Mjolnir, since it still will be very strong for Combat. But you probably will want to drop Grim Toll in lieu of something else, because otherwise you will cap out too easily. If you assume that the EP of ArP drops to below ~2.05 with a cap (which is likely true), then you will want to gem for Agi instead. However, ArP will still be a good enough stat that you won't necessarily want to abandon those pieces entirely.

 

bankyz

I'm surprised how much focus has been on Combat since 3.1 seeing Mutilate is still more DPS yet there hasn't been much speculation regarding BIS mutilate..gems ect, most all of it is Combat. Combat favors more ulduar bosses sure, but it seems like Mutilate in general hasn't been theorycrafted nearly to the same extent.

Taking hardmodes into consideration Mutilate deserves a tad more attention.

General 'Mutilate' question: without spreadsheeting approximately when is the best time to switch agi gems over to arpen gems about how many BIS pieces do you need? I've read combat favors armor pen more but does that mean Mutilate makes the transfer to arpen later down the road like when, nearly full BIS?

 

◊ chalon

There is already a list of BiS gear setup for Mutilate in the first post of this thread, so it's not like it's been entirely abandoned on these boards or among the top end guilds (I certainly haven't abandoned it myself).

You don't want to switch to ArP ever as Mutilate...it starts out quite a bit lower in value.

 

Giloran

There is no such point where ArP becomes stronger than AP/Agi, Mut simply deals ways too much armor-ignoring damage (roughly 50%).

I agree, the focus on this forums lies too much on combat at the moment, I am most likely going to stick with Mut for Ulduar though.

Edit: Now that you mention it, I never realised the first post was updated, I always jumped to the last page. :|
Regarding the BiS Mutilate-List, I'm pretty sure 4/5 Terrorblade + Legguards of Cunning Deception is superior to 4/5 Terrorblade + [Shoulderpads of the Intruder].

 

bankyz

That sucks. This will kill Rogue's dual PVE specs then? After you re-gem arpen for Combat, no switching Mutilate on mudurable bosses mid-raid.

How much BIS about do you need approximately for combat after 4/5 to make the transition from agi to arpen btw? how much ballpark?

 

◊ chalon

The discussion will be kind of moot if they go through with the ArP cap though -- it's pretty likely after that Combat's BiS setup will look quite a bit more like Mutilate's.

 

Tinwhisker

In a recent post GC cited the next tier of gear as part of the reason they're thinking about the change. This probably means they don't feel that in it's current stat, ArP stacking is able to reach crazy numbers but the next round of gear will allow for that.

If you read into that a bit (treacherous ground here), it means that rogue/warrior gear in the next tier may have a pretty good chunk of ArP on it already. Good for Combat but not so much for Mutilate. Of course, that assumes that it's the tier gear that has ArP on it. If it's the off-pieces that are heavy ArP then it's not as good for Combat.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

◊ chalon

Well, they obviously haven't itemized any of the next tier gear yet, so that's a bit of a slippery slope. Given the current tier pieces have 0 ArP on it, I don't see why they would suddenly put a lot of ArP on it, though. But who knows.

 

Tinwhisker

Moving from T4 to T5 saw a significant shift from +hit to +crit; it's certainly not unprecedented in other classes as well. GC even said, "we don't want the next tier to be the same as the previous tier with +2 to every stat."

That said, ArP is still largely a "B" stat on gear and is unlikely to be featured strongly on tier pieces (especially late tiers where things are generally better optimized). I agree that it's more likely to be seen on off-pieces meaning that Combat will be unlikely to capitalize on it fully in the next tier while still keeping set bonuses in tact.

I would also not expect to see another overbudgeted ArP proc trinket anytime soon either.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

SilentNSly

Blizzard has announced ArPen to cap at 100% as a few others in this thread has mentioned.

Can I ask if this list make ArPen go more that 100%? If so, by how much.


Hope you can also provide a new list. I am guessing removing ArPen from procs, so replacing trinkets?

 

Woodrowbt

Probably replacing one trinket would do the job. Keeping Mjolnir Runestone. Both trinkets up is extremely close to 100% on its own.

 

• Aldriana

So, the best in slot gear setup is actually somewhat debatable now for combat. ArPen stacking still produces the highest DPS, but, traditional agi-based setups aren't too far behind, and provide a number of benefits - which I'll go over after the gear list:

Slot	Mutilate	Combat	Combat 2
Helm	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Helmet]	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Helmet]	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Helmet]
Helm Gems	16 agi + RED	16 ArPen + RED	16 agi + RED
Neck	Pendulum of Infinity	Pendulum of Infinity	Pendulum of Infinity
Neck Gems	27 agi	27 ArPen	27 agi
Shoulder	[Shoulderpads of the Intruder]	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Pauldrons]	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Pauldrons]
Shoulder Gems	16 agi + 27 agi	16 ArPen	16 agi
Cloak	[Drape of the Faceless General]	[Drape of the Faceless General]	[Drape of the Faceless General]
Cloak Gems	16 agi + 8 agi/8 crit	16 ArPen + 8 agi/8 crit	16 agi + 8 agi/8 crit
Chest	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Breastplate]	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Breastplate]	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Breastplate]
Chest Gems	16 agi + 8 agi/8 crit	16 ArPen + 8 agi/8 crit	16 agi + 8 agi/8 crit
Bracers	[Mechanist's Bindings]	[Fluxing Energy Coils]	[Fluxing Energy Coils]
Bracer Gems	-	8 agi/8 crit	8 agi/8 crit
Gloves	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Gauntlets]	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Gauntlets]	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Gauntlets]
Glove Gems	20 agi	20 agi	20 agi
Belt	[Soul-Devouring Cinch]	[Soul-Devouring Cinch]	[Soul-Devouring Cinch]
Belt Gems	16agi x2	16ArPenx2	16agi x2
Legs	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Legplates]	Legguards of Cunning Deception	Legguards of Cunning Deception
Leg Gems	16 agi + 8agi/8crit	16 ArPen + 8agi/8crit + 27 ArPen	16 agi + 8agi/8crit + 27 agi
Boots	[Footpads of Silence]	[Footpads of Silence]	[Footpads of Silence]
Boot Gems	16 agi + 27 agi	16 ArPen + 27 ArPen	16 agi + 27 agi
Ring1	Brann's Signet Ring	Brann's Signet Ring	Brann's Signet Ring
Ring1 Gems	16 agi	16 ArPen	16 agi
Ring2	[Loop of the Agile]	Brann's Sealing Ring	Brann's Sealing Ring
Ring2 Gems	16 agi	16 ArPen	16 agi
Trinket1	[Mjolnir Runestone]	[Mjolnir Runestone]	[Mjolnir Runestone]
Trinket2	[Blood of the Old God]	[Darkmoon Card: Greatness]	[Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
Ranged	Skyforge Crossbow	[Twirling Blades]	[Giant's Bane]
Ranged Socket	-	16 ArPen	-
MH	[Fang of Oblivion]	[Golden Saronite Dragon]	[Golden Saronite Dragon]
MH Gem	8 agi/8 crit	16 ArPen	8 agi/8 crit
OH	Bladetwister	Bladetwister	Bladetwister
OH Gems	16 agi	16 ArPen	16 agi
DPS Estimate	7586.7 (8058.6 Murderable)	7733.7	7712.0

So, you'll note that the Combat 2 setup is about a quarter of a percent DPS behind; the question is - what does your quater of a percent buy you?

Well, two things. First, you wind up with 294 extra agility on your gear, which results a nontrivial increase in your dodge rate. And while it's true that defensive stats aren't hugely important, I will say that a quarter percent DPS for somewhat over 4% dodge is getting into the range of vaguely reasonable tradeoffs. I'm not going to say that *everyone* will think it so, but there's at least a plausible argument to be made.

Second, it means that the items shared in combat between Mutilate and Combat are socketed the same for both specs - this makes it significantly more feasible to switch back and forth between combat and mutilate based on which is better for the particular fight - and if you'll note the Murderable DPS number for Mutilate, it's reasonable far ahead of combat. Thus, for those bosses which can't be murdered and don't favor combat's cooldowns (and there are a couple), the ability to switch between them easily is a fairly notable advantage.

 

SilentNSly

Thanks, this info makes it very clear the difference with stack ArPen gems or AGI gems.

For me, I think a quarter of a percent is probable too low to matter, so I will go with the AGI route.

 

Crazed

I've been gemming for agi, think I'll keep doing so. However - I do have a question since I'm a bit confused about the changes to Armor Penetration which is due next patch.

Forgive me for my ignorance, but the BiS Combat #1 set offers about 35,82% of Armor Penetration, together with the Mjolnir Runestone proc which is 49,72%, we'd have around 85,53% Armor Penetration - now what I understood was is that we can no longer go over 100% Armor Penetration, which speaks for itself. But is this also affected by Sunder Armors, Faerie Fire etc.?

 

bankyz

Aldriana thanks for taking the time to make that list, mucho appriciated.

 

Xaoc

Sunders and FF are taken into account at a different time. I want to say its before any ArPen reduction is calculated, ie. whatever armor is left after sunder/FF is what your ArPen will reduce.

 

hawtdawg

Aldriana, is Greatness now superior to Grim Toll either way you go with combat now or is this a typo?

 

Arlecchino

Because of the recent change to ArP not being able to go past 100%, Greatness is now indeed better. (At least with that setup of gear)

 

Exsequor

Forgive me if this has been covered already (as far as I know, it hasn't) - but why have movement speed enchants been completely ignored in all BiS list compilations? Wouldn't Cat's Swiftness be BiS on the vast majority of Ulduar bosses (especially the hard modes, all of which benefit from increased movement speed with the possible exception of Thorim and XT)? Am I just missing something here?

 

• Aldriana

For most slots, enchants are obvious - Arcanum of Torment, Greater Inscription of the Axe, 22 agi to cloak, 50 AP to bracers, 44 AP to gloves, Icescale Leg Armor, and Berserking on both weapons. Boots are really the only slot where there's any debate, which is why it doesn't get discussed much.

For boots, the only viable options are Icewalker and Cat's Swiftness, and the previous discussion of these boot enchant concluded that it was sort of a toss-up which to use - about half the fights in Ulduar favor each. See this post for a slightly more detailed analysis of the situation.

 

Giloran

Depends on your definition of BiS. I can't see a dps increase due to runspeed on most of the hardmodes in Ulduar. You already excluded XT and Thorim but you can rule out Iron Council (the only thing that should really matter is your dps on Steelbreaker), Hodir (depending on whether you nuke Flash Freezes or just stick to Hodir) and Freya (runspeed makes it easier to avoid AoE etc, but doesn't really help with your dps).

I don't think Cat's Swiftness will pay off in a BiS-setup, maxed out for maximum dps.

As Mut you could alternatively just Spec Fleet Footed on non-murderable bosses such as Mimiron or Yogg-Saron.

Edit: Sorry Aldriana, didn't reload the page for quite a while, didn't see your post. :|

 

Crazed

So why is the BiS gear for Combat changed? I mean, both sets don't ever hit the 100% ArP cap if I'm not mistaken, even with the trinket proc. Has ArP been nerfed that much or was it a matter of miscalucation/misinformation which was overlooked when forming the first BiS set for Combat?

 

• Aldriana

Again, please note that discussion of hard mode encounters is still against the forum rules - thus, please don't do so.

Regarding Crazed's point: with the double trinket proc before the BIS combat setup was going far, far beyond 100% - almost to 150%, as I recall. And even with just one trinket proc, it was over the cap. This significantly inflated the value of ArPen, such that the ArPen cascade took it's value all the way up to 2.4 EP or more. Since that's no longer possible - double proccing is no longer desirable, to the extent that we're dropping one of the trinkets - the value of ArPen winds up lower overall. In the stacked ArPen configuration it creeps past 2.1, but we never see the runaway valuation of it that we saw previously. So yes, the ArPen setup is still under the cap, even with Mjolnir procced; but the fact that you can no longer blow past the cap limits your options in terms of double trinket procs and ArPen stacking, thus ArPen stacking is no longer as viable an approach - at least, not given the current itemization options.

 

Joigahdenn

Ok, I'm not sure I am exactly right on this, but let me see if I can wing an answer. I think when both trinkets proc together (Grim Troll and Mjolnir Runestone) you actually do go over the 100% armor pen cap, and for reasons I do not entirely understand, the ArP has increased returns (as opposed to diminishing returns like hit, or dodge for tanks, etc), so going beyond 100% ArP was a good thing. Since both ArP trinkets behave very similarly, it was likely that you would get them to proc together rather often. However, now that ArP does cap at 100%, if you have both trinkets proc together, you're effectively wasting whatever ArP that would bring you beyond 100% during that time. My guess is if the behavior of the 2 trinkets was different enough, so that they usually proced separately, it would be best to have them both, but since that isn't the case, having DMG is the better option.

I hope that wasn't too confusing, or wrong for that matter.

Edit: Posted to late, sorry.