WotLK Rogue Gear Discussion - Page 29

Macabrie · 02/20/09, 5:14 PM

I'm trying to determine if the value of 4pc is as beneficial to a combat spec as it is to a mutilate spec.

Combat works best when you have 4pc + Leggings of the Honnored. (according to the spreadsheet)

The 4pc only affects Sinister Strike; reducing the cost by 2 energy:
40*0.05 = 2

I need help with an explanation as to why 2 energy out of every SS is worth not having Frosted Adroit Handguards over T7.5.

According to the following WWS parse Wow Web Stats (Sarth3d + Naxx; Bosses only), I used SS 504 times (all bosses); which would equate to 1008 energy saved from 4pc over the course of the night. Comparing this to my combat potency procs, the value of the 4pc for a combat rogue is slightly less than 1/8th the value of Combat Potency.

Does the gain you would get from having superior gloves out-weigh receiving 1/8th the value of Combat Potency?

• Aldriana · 02/20/09, 5:29 PM

You're thinking about this the wrong way. It reduces the cost of your SS by 5%; thus, you have 5% more SS performed, hence 5% more damage. It also increases the number of combo points you get in a given amount of time by 5%; thus, it increases your finisher DPS by about 5% as well - and possibly more, it it allows you to move to a better cycle as well. And it also increases your damage from poisons and procs a bit as well - your Berserking uptime will be slightly better, and so forth. But, lets ignore these second-order effects and just look at it from the perspective of a 5% increase in SS and finisher damage - from this perspective alone, a rogue doing 5000 DPS, of which, say, a third is from these two sources, gains 85 DPS or so, or the equivalent of almost 150 AP. So: if your gloves (or whatever) were *enough* better, it might be worth breaking the set bonus for; but from a practical perspective, with the available itemization, it's not.

At this point I feel obligated to point out that this exact explanation has appeared at least twice previously in these forums, such that searching probably would have eliminated the need to ask. I'd also note that all the relevant mechanics are modeled in more detail than can be easily here reproduced in the spreadsheet; as such, the answer "you should trust the spreadsheet" also applies.

Prianas · 02/21/09, 3:19 AM

So like, I put in some numbers into the spreadsheet, just to make sure, and I arrived at the conclusion at what I've seen people say, that the 4 piece, helm/gloves/legs/shoulders and the [Chestguard of the Recluse] is the optimal set up, please correct me if I am wrong.. I am only going over this once again, for the reason of I got the [Leggings of the Honored] and I didn't want to waste gold by enchanting it and then finding out that I had wasted gold lol. Can someone agree with me please? I just don't know if anything has changed since the last someone checked this out =(

saedo · 02/21/09, 3:22 AM

Originally Posted by Prianas

So like, I put in some numbers into the spreadsheet, just to make sure, and I arrived at the conclusion at what I've seen people say, that the 4 piece, helm/gloves/legs/shoulders and the [Chestguard of the Recluse] is the optimal set up, please correct me if I am wrong.. I am only going over this once again, for the reason of I got the [Leggings of the Honored] and I didn't want to waste gold by enchanting it and then finding out that I had wasted gold lol. Can someone agree with me please? I just don't know if anything has changed since the last someone checked this out =(

You might wind up still using it with Ulduar pieces breaking up what you got.

Frorgon · 02/21/09, 6:00 PM

I haven't visited this page in a while and noticed a few changes. At first it said the best mutilate combo was a sinister revenge mainhand and a webbed death offhand, which is what I'm currently using. Should I switch them around? It feels like my dps is lower with them switched.

And also should I be looking to get a second Webbed Death?

Simalo · 02/21/09, 9:35 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Thus - unless you have some evidence, testing, or theorycraft that says otherwise - it's somewhat misleading to assert that MoN and LS are the best trinkets for you as combat, as all existing data indicates that Greatness, Mirror, and FotFF are all superior to both LS and MoN.

The situation in which LS and MoN came out on top over the other choices was a 145 second combat duration using BF, LS, MoN, and hyperspeed accelerators at the very start of combat. Bloodlust is cast at 100 seconds, and I use BF, LS, MoN, hyperspeed accelerators, Berskerking racial, and a speed pot at 120 seconds, and it seems that the stacking of all of those at once multiply to a higher yield than any other trinket setup. I'm sure its due to the relatively short fight that Patchwerk is at this time.

The spreadsheet gives me a dps of 5793 with LS and MoN. And it gives me 5723 with greatness and FotFF.

Edited because I forgot some numbers.

• Aldriana · 02/21/09, 9:46 PM

Sure, for fights right around 2:15 to 2:30, 2-min cool trinkets are really strong. But for a 2 minute fight, or a 3 minute fight, or, frankly, just about any other fight you care to mention, Greatness, FotFF, and Mirror tend to be better. So it's fair to say that the use trinkets are best for Patchwerk and a handful of other fights at the moment, but in terms of the overall "best" trinkets, that perform best across all fights, they're somewhat back in the pack.

ohnoes · 02/22/09, 3:45 AM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

Just to be completely explicit - on the side of people who think that stacking cooldowns does not magically make trinkets like LS and MoN better than their commonly-accepted value, we have as evidence a spreadsheet that actually models the exact implications of the ability to stack cooldowns. I would recommend having at least as much evidence on your side before you try to pass such assertions as fact.

I actually have a similar question about the spreadsheet stacking cooldowns. For example, Grim Toll is supposedly the best Combat trinket for best in slot gear and I was wondering if this is so high due to it assuming Blade Flurry, KS, or AR were used during the proc everytime it was up. Because to me, its hard to time your cooldown stacking sometimes with the proc because of how short fights are right now and I would think that using FotFF might be a bit better on a consistent basis due to the proc having 100% uptime on most fights.

xvvx01 · 02/22/09, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by ohnoes

I actually have a similar question about the spreadsheet stacking cooldowns. For example, Grim Toll is supposedly the best Combat trinket for best in slot gear and I was wondering if this is so high due to it assuming Blade Flurry, KS, or AR were used during the proc everytime it was up. Because to me, its hard to time your cooldown stacking sometimes with the proc because of how short fights are right now and I would think that using FotFF might be a bit better on a consistent basis due to the proc having 100% uptime on most fights.

I think the reason Grim Toll outdoes other trinkets for Combat is because of the high amount of stat points allocated to it compared to other trinkets and that Armor Pen is worth more to Combat than Mutilate, rather than it being based around popping CDs when you get a Grim Toll proc.

Noxe · 02/23/09, 7:12 AM

Originally Posted by Frorgon

I haven't visited this page in a while and noticed a few changes. At first it said the best mutilate combo was a sinister revenge mainhand and a webbed death offhand, which is what I'm currently using. Should I switch them around? It feels like my dps is lower with them switched.

And also should I be looking to get a second Webbed Death?

To start with. Yes, you should try to obtain second Webbed Death. Double WD is currently the best muti setup for both IP+DP and IP+IP specs.
However, in your current situation where you have no access to 2nd Webbed Death you should switch your weapon setup. WD together with IP in your main hand and SR with deadly poison in your off hand (only IP+DP in this case).

Maltese · 02/23/09, 5:42 PM

While fiddling around with the new spreadsheet I found that stark monarch topaz (16 AP 8 Haste Raiting) surpassed Wicked by a slight margin at best in slot levels. Probably due to haste now being better than crit with dual WD and IP.

Danzir · 02/24/09, 6:47 PM

These two new crafted items seem to surpass our current best in slot. Seems an odd thing to do.

and

saedo · 02/24/09, 6:52 PM

Originally Posted by Danzir

These two new crafted items seem to surpass our current best in slot. Seems an odd thing to do.

Why would it be odd? Seems to take Runed Orbs, most likely taking these to ilvl 226, the T8.25 level.

Danzir · 02/24/09, 7:08 PM

Originally Posted by saedo

Why would it be odd? Seems to take Runed Orbs, most likely taking these to ilvl 226, the T8.25 level.

oops. you are correct. I didn't look too deeply into mats. I was figuring these would be avail right out of the gates.

Hookie · 02/24/09, 7:11 PM

The armor value on belt matches being 226, same as malys leather caster belt.