For most slots, enchants are obvious - Arcanum of Torment, Greater Inscription of the Axe, 22 agi to cloak, 50 AP to bracers, 44 AP to gloves, Icescale Leg Armor, and Berserking on both weapons. Boots are really the only slot where there's any debate, which is why it doesn't get discussed much.
The great irony being that we don't talk about the only one worth debating... = P
Actually, funny enough, Aldriana, your spreadsheet was reporting Accuracy as having a slightly higher EP value than Berserking on my offhand when last I was playing around with it. I don't recall actually changing the enchant, so I dunno if it would have yielded a higher DPS overall, but I wonder why it would be worth even more EP than what is agreed upon as the best enchant for use. Weird.
As for Icewalker vs. Cat's Swiftness, I like to compare the decision to choosing Expertise or Agility while specced Mutilate. One can be valued higher in purely numberic terms while the other provides something that is difficult to measure the same way. Just as most Mutilate players choose to gem for Expertise until they reach the cap to smooth out their cycles, I would rather have the run speed boost to improve survivability, reduce downtime between targets, and keep on mobile targets. It's hard to quantify the benefit of that movement speed buff, but it's easy to quantify how much DPS a dead rogue deals, and sometimes moving just a little faster can mean the difference between living and dying.
Briefly stated: Berserking increases the value of Accuracy, and vice versa - so while with some gear sets Accuracy does get high enough that it will show up as a recommendation, if you actually switch to it, your DPS goes down slightly and it recommends Berserking again. Or at least, I haven't seen a situation in which Accuracy actually yields a higher DPS number - the circumstances may exist, but it's certainly rare. So as a rule of thumb, I think "Berserking is better" is a pretty fair assessment.
The great irony being that we don't talk about the only one worth debating... = P
Actually, funny enough, Aldriana, your spreadsheet was reporting Accuracy as having a slightly higher EP value than Berserking on my offhand when last I was playing around with it. I don't recall actually changing the enchant, so I dunno if it would have yielded a higher DPS overall, but I wonder why it would be worth even more EP than what is agreed upon as the best enchant for use. Weird.
As for Icewalker vs. Cat's Swiftness, I like to compare the decision to choosing Expertise or Agility while specced Mutilate. One can be valued higher in purely numberic terms while the other provides something that is difficult to measure the same way. Just as most Mutilate players choose to gem for Expertise until they reach the cap to smooth out their cycles, I would rather have the run speed boost to improve survivability, reduce downtime between targets, and keep on mobile targets. It's hard to quantify the benefit of that movement speed buff, but it's easy to quantify how much DPS a dead rogue deals, and sometimes moving just a little faster can mean the difference between living and dying.
I experienced a similar issue. I changed the enchant and it was a DPS increase. I wondered this for a bit, then I equipped Strong Handed Ring over my Inscribed Kirin Tor ring and it went back to Berserking. So it's probably the value of hit. As you reach closer to poisons cap Berserking is better but if you're still a fair bit away, Accuracy would yield more DPS. The point at which it changes probably depends on gear and whether you run with Vile Poisons or not.
So i was on Aldriana's spreadsheet and was playing with 51/13/7 vs 51/7/13 and after looking at the DPS source Rupture was doing 748.59 DPS, Envenom was doing 724.75 as 51/13/7 with 4/5 T8. I am not sure if envenoms calculation includes the buff it leaves over but I am assuming it does not, if it doesn't; does envenom out-DPS rupture?
If it doesn't, does this not favor rupture-less cycles again? Since envenom scales with more stats(Haste Crit AP Hit) than rupture won't it become even more prevalent in later tiers of content when we don't have 4/5 T8?
Excuse me if I'm being ignorant on this or if there's something I am missing but something seems off.
So i was on Aldriana's spreadsheet and was playing with 51/13/7 vs 51/7/13 and after looking at the DPS source Rupture was doing 748.59 DPS, Envenom was doing 724.75 as 51/13/7 with 4/5 T8. I am not sure if envenoms calculation includes the buff it leaves over but I am assuming it does not, if it doesn't; does envenom out-DPS rupture?
If it doesn't, does this not favor rupture-less cycles again? Since envenom scales with more stats(Haste Crit AP Hit) than rupture won't it become even more prevalent in later tiers of content when we don't have 4/5 T8?
Excuse me if I'm being ignorant on this or if there's something I am missing but something seems off.
Rupture costs 25 energy and Envenom costs 35. Strictly from a damage per energy perspective, rupture does more damage per point of energy. It is the more efficient finisher, hence replacing it with envenom would be a DPS loss. With 4/5 T8 specced into 51/7/13 you're getting even more damage out of rupture, and rupture also scales with Crit and AP. Neither Envenom nor Rupture scale with hit past the specials hit cap, which is 99 with 5/5 precision, so you should be capped for finishers. Also, your specials are instants and thus depend on energy income not attack speed, so I don't think haste really affects either, at least not directly (unless there is some interaction between focused attacks, energy income, and haste, which I'm not sure about since white hits are on a one roll system).
Edit: Thanks for pointing that out Maltese, I had indeed misunderstood the question (been working on graduation a lot, mind isn't quite as sharp after endless days without real sleep). I guess it is worth mentioning that Haste would benefit a ruptureless envenom cycle, since it seems poison PPM mechanics are indeed affected by haste as they are normalized to base weapons speed.
Not that I disagree with you joigahdenn, but leonoire was asking specifically about rupture free cycle once rogues are not wearing 4/5 T8 in later teirs. Haste affects deadly poison stacking to some degree which would lead to a slight increase in envenom damage if you are waiting for 5 stacks of deadly poison before envenoming, but a large benefit of envenom is the buff you get. Meaning, if you were to drop rupture from your cycle completely, your envenom buffs would without a doubt be majorly overlapping thereby reducing the benefit of going to a envenom only cycle. This is of course completely ignoring the fact that rupture is without a doubt the highest damage per energy move rogues have as joigahdenn pointed out.
Rupture costs 25 energy and Envenom costs 35. Strictly from a damage per energy perspective, rupture does more damage per point of energy. It is the more efficient finisher, hence replacing it with envenom would be a DPS loss. With 4/5 T8 specced into 51/7/13 you're getting even more damage out of rupture, and rupture also scales with Crit and AP. Neither Envenom nor Rupture scale with hit past the specials hit cap, which is 99 with 5/5 precision, so you should be capped for finishers. Also, your specials are instants and thus depend on energy income not attack speed, so I don't think haste really affects either, at least not directly (unless there is some interaction between focused attacks, energy income, and haste, which I'm not sure about since white hits are on a one roll system).
Edit: My apologies, misread the question.
Envenom does scale with the white hit cap but very slightly. If you miss and attack during the envenom buff, that means you missed a poison proc, so if it hits it is more valuable in my opinion, same with haste the after effect of envenom does scale slightly with these stats.
I guess the energy cost may cause things to balance out with a full envenom cycle, but i do not think envenom clipping would be nearly an issue you would just need to time your finisher if you got a quick 4 CP's and wait for envenom to fade.
Edit: I guess we understand each other more now but I am not a modeling expert and someone else would have to do the comparative testing to see this in my opinion. But they seem very close.
Waiting till the buff wears off to apply envenom could and most likely would lead to your energy capping out, which is definitely not ideal. You can almost keep the envenom buff up now while keeping rupture up 100% of the time. Keep in mind that relentless strikes makes many of your ruptures effectively free in terms of energy cost so there is really no reason you shouldn't be using it in your boss rotations.
While it's true that ruptures have (effectively) no energy cost, it's also true that they have a combo point cost, and thus a lost opportunity cost. Nor is the straight energy calculations necessarily indicative. That is: while I agree with the general conclusions being reached - to wit, the fact that for the moment rupture is generally stronger than Envenom and thus needs to find it's way into Mutilate cycles - I think it's also worth keeping in mind that the margin of superiority is not, perhaps, as large as one might think based on these arguments. As we saw on PTR: the simple replacement of the Rupture glyph with the Envenom glyph was sufficient to tip the balance. Thus, while it's *currently* true that Rupture is a vital part of Envenom cycles, it should not necessarily be assumed that that will always be the case - if we get a new glyph which displaces Rupture, or our next tier has no rupture-based set bonus, or any such thing, we could quite plausibly see Rupture dropping out of our cycles.
Of course, Blizzard seems to be aware of this, and, rightly or wrongly, are opposed to the notion; as such, I would anticipate that they will seek to avoid this eventuality. But, contrary to some of the recent posts, I don't think the notion is fundamentally ridiculous in an abstract sense, either.
Waiting till the buff wears off to apply envenom could and most likely would lead to your energy capping out
The Envenom buff is only 6 seconds, and you'll be spending energy on mutilate, your energy will not cap out even if you have a quick 4 CP's after one envenom.You can usually get at least 2 envenoms between ruptures, I am simply stating that envenom and rupture are very very close at the moment and that small gear changes and set bonus changes in the future could change things. But yes, currently, Rupture is better.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
Of course, Blizzard seems to be aware of this, and, rightly or wrongly, are opposed to the notion; as such, I would anticipate that they will seek to avoid this eventuality. But, contrary to some of the recent posts, I don't think the notion is fundamentally ridiculous in an abstract sense, either.
I completely agree, blizzard will never allow rupture to leave the mutilate cycle and the envenom glyph was the perfect example of it. I think they are at the point they want, Rupture being better, but just barely.
Alagon 10m World First by Ensidia. Dropped a fancy new trinket Dark Matter. I haven't been able to run any numbers yet, but looks like a good candidate to be a top trinket, maybe in place of DMC:G...
Seems to be roughly equal to [Blood of the Old God]. If we assume both of them proc once every 60seconds it comes down to Dark Matter granting 222 AP and 102 crit rating whereas BOG has 214 AP and 108 hit rating.
Tun received the quest item and selected the ring reward - one for which we need to know the socket bonus. Sadly, he didn't mouseover the ring, but armory does reveal that he has that item (it's hidden for now).
Hopefully, either the screenshots they say they'll release shortly will contain a mouseover of the ring's stats or Armory will update with full stats. I urge others to join me in my stalking of the armory (linked earlier) so we can find out that damn socket bonus.
ok.. warning.. nub question (I did read the past 3 pages)
but if I read that chart right that aldriana wrote with BiS items for all 3 specs.. the helmet gems.. are now 16ArP and a red gem (usually agi) so... screw the meta gem completely? or did I miss something here?
According to spreadsheet, Mace spec wins clearly now that stonerender is 1.5 speed, even though the sheet does not seem to account for extra expertise from racials. Anyone else getting similar results?
05/16/09, 10:17 PM
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