Returning to mace spec, and purely for fun really...

I have altered Ald's last combat spreadsheet to contain the 3.1.2 changes to Caress of Insanity and Stonerender.

Now if I am using mace spec, I will be over the ArP cap during the proc of Mjolner Runestone. If the in-game tooltip is incorrect, which Mjolnir Runestone - Spell - World of Warcraft suggests, then MR will proc 665 ArP = 54% Armor Pen.

so 15% passive ArP. + 35.83% passively with gear+gems +54.03% with Mjolnir active lands at 104.86%. I don't know if there is a better way of doing this, but then removing 4x 16ArP gems puts you on 99.66% ArP during the MR proc.

If Brann's signet ring/pendulum of infinity/legs of cunning dec had a 4(+) ArP socket bonus... that would put us on 99.99-100.x% Or maybe swapping a 27 ArP gem for a 27 agility one... I'm not sure. Just food for thought really.

Does anyone know any details on the socket bonuses mentioned above yet?

So, to revisit Dark Matter for a minute, it seems to me that there are two points of significance to discuss that haven't really been touched on.

First, if the proc mechanics are akin to those of most trinkets so far the expansion - and in particular identical to Mjolnir's and Grim Toll - then there becomes a synergy between the two. While stacking an ArPen proc with a crit proc clearly isn't as good as stacking double ArPen, it's still going to give some advantages. This, combined with the fact that Mjolnir/Dark Matter is optimal for Combat quite apart from this synergy means the combination of the two will be quite potent indeed. And even as Mutilate, it's not clear that this combination won't be worth using, though there is a problem in terms of lack of hit rating to be resolved.

Second, Dark Matter brings us to a problem that we haven't had to worry about in quite some time. Consider: with the best gear I currently have available to me, my baseline crit rate against a boss level mob with full raid buffs is 53.07%. If I were to add a trinket proc that adds 13.33% crit, that would put me at 66.40% crit. So what's the problem?

Well, in that same gear, my white miss rate is 11.73%, and (as I'm not expertise capped), I have a .98% chance to be dodged as well. And, as with all boss level mobs, I have a 24% chance to be dodged glance. And 66.40 + 11.73 + .98 + 24 = 103.11% - which is more than 100%.

So what does this mean? It means that Dark Matter, when procced, puts a rogue at my gear level well over the white hit cap. And while my gear is certainly good, it's by no means atypical of rogues that are going to be at a level of progression that allows them to kill Algalon 10. Thus, when assessing this trinket, in addition to needing to worry about the synergy with other trinkets, we are additionally going to need to worry about what it does in relation to the white crit cap.

Edit: Fixed typo.

Without any math or factual evidence, it seems to me the simplest way to remedy meeting the white crit cap would be a change in gems. It's already been discussed that armorpen gems prove better than agi as a bis combat rogue; perhaps AP becomes the gem of choice for mutilate? Although I'm unsure if gems are the best solution or will provide enough of a difference--I'm counting only ~2.44% crit from agility gems in my own gear that could easily be swapped over to ap.

I'm assuming you meant 24% *glance*.

Yeah, you definitely have to consider the hit table when evaluating the trinket. It's going to be a bigger issue for CQC combat than Mutilate, since it will get 5% more crit. Though on the other hand, Mutilate is inherently going to have 3% less hit due to lack of a full 5 points in Precision.

For Mutilate, you want to stack Agi once you have the 4pc T8. However, a better trade might be swapping Agi gems for Expertise (assuming you aren't capped), since you attack the cap from both angles. Your crit is being reduced, and you're reducing the dodge chance, which increases room for crit from that proc on your hit table.

Well, there are a number of ways to approach this. One way of looking at it is that it simply makes that trinket less good, as you only benefit from the first 450 (or whatever) crit rating on the proc rather than the full 600, for many of your attacks. And, under that assumption, maybe you just conclude "this isn't worth using" and use something else instead. But I suspect that, with the aforementioned synergy, one finds it's still worth using. Particularly given the ability to squeeze killing sprees (and the like) in during double proc uptime periods.

Thus, the more likely scenario is: one uses it *anyway*, and this has a couple of implications:

1) It may lower the value of crit/agi enough that you want to start using some other stat instead. However, as it's only white attacks, and only with 20% uptime, this isn't going to crater the value of crit (or agi) - at most, it's going to reduce the value of these stats by a tenth of an EP or less. So they may or may not be worth replacing due to the proc.

2) It may increase the value of hit and expertise, to raise your white hit cap to the point where you can more fully benefit from crit. See previous caveats - while it may increase it by a tenth of a EP, it's not going to cause huge reshufflings.

3) It may make CQC specs less desirable - while sword and mace builds will hit the crit cap eventually, they do require more gear to do so and thus don't surpass it by as large a margin. As such, it might turn out that, rather than adjusting your gemming and other itemization, it might work out to be superior to use a currently-inferior weapon combination so as to leave more room under the cap. This will be particularly appealing if an ilvl 239 MH Sword or Mace turns up on the Algalon loot table at some point.

In short: there are multiple possible solutions; to figure out which actually applies requires vastly more detailed modeling than we are currently doing.

As a side note: the fact that we now need to pay attention to crit and ArPen caps in addition to expertise and hit caps is going to make high-end itemization a real zoo. Particularly as gear continues to improve in 3.2 and beyond. As we get to these boundaries, EP is going to be rather less valuable as an approximation tool, so we will likely need to improve our methods in these areas as well.

After seeing how our T8 sockets made gem selection such an easy task that any moron could do it, I'm actually looking forward to the possibility that top end gear might require actual decisions to be made by us regarding how we address (even soft-) capping certain stats.

Although, imagine how mean we'll have to be to the throngs of idiots who ask, "What's better, x or y?" when we can't simply dismiss them with "Use the spreadsheet." Or rather, when doing so means they have to do a lot more than switch one or two pieces...

Simulation method can handle both problems. It can easily account for synergy, no matter how complicated analytically the formula is, and the cap on white crit does not require any additional changes to the software. I will incorporate the trinket and if anything it will be an alternative assessment until you figure out an adequate analytical model.

White crit cap should not cause much trouble modeling, it's the synergies that are much harder. The problem with doing synergies analytically is that almost every proc that has a different functional proc is capable of producing a synergy. Even if you take the crit proc and attack power proc (from trinkets as well as from berserking enchants), there are synergies there. The synergy is proportional to XC, where X is extra damage from the proc attack power and C is proc crit rate. So average method would underestimate the DPS value of these trinkets. The higher is the overlap of uptimes between the trinkets, the higher is the synergy. The more the crit trinket lines up with berserking buff, the higher is the synergy there.

I have a pretty good idea how to model these issues analytically. It just can't easily be done in a spreadsheet - at least, not without massive macro usage, which I'm averse to. So I'd be looking at a revival of something akin to RogueCalc to make it fly. However, there's quite a bit of ground work to be laid before the real modeling can happen, so it remains to be seen when or if such a project will become feasible.

As an easy way to help people with these issues while you are searching for a longterm solution would it be a good idea to make a section in the spreadsheet that shows your caps. (like we do with Expertise)

For example it could show the white crit cap as follows:

Say your whitecrit cap is 60% (24% glance 16% miss) it could show:

Critical Strike: 48%(current) / 60%(your cap)

or the same thing but showing rating instead of %

I think this could help alot and would also make it a bit more clear to people exactly why a great gem, enchant or piece of gear is not a clear upgrade.

According to the blue post on MMO this morning, quite a few weapons have had their speed adjusted. One of those is GSD (now 2.7 according to a note on wowhead, i don't have it to check), will that just push it further ahead of sword/mace options for combat?

Yes, it will.

I recently had [Daschal's Bite] and I was previously using [Sinister Revenge] MH and [Webbed Death] OH.
I'm not sure of which weapon I should use OH now as I have now equipped [Daschal's Bite]. Should I go for a fast OH with less DPS or [Sinister Revenge] with a higher DPS?
On fights like Kologarn, does it help using [Webbed Death] to apply correctly the deadly poison?.
Thanks for your help

(template : 51/13/7)

I run with DB MH and SR OH in my Mutilate setup because the Spreadsheet told me to.
The difference isn't that huge though, so you might want to try WD in the OH too.
Watch your DP stacks, and if you have problems keeping DP up with the slow OH you might want to switch. It works fine for me though.

heya guys,

i'm a combat C&C spec rogue, curently using CG and G-SS
i just get Malice (Kologran 25 man) and Rune-Etched Nightblade (Iron Council 10 man) last night,
hmm, would it better if i change spec from C&C to Sword spec?

thanks.

It is too close to call. It depends on your gear. Use the spreadsheet.

This is probably the 50th time that question or some permutation of it has been asked this week.

I recently picked up a Daschal's as well. I noticed on most fights, SR in your OH is slightly higher in dps, as the spreadsheet also tells for me, for the most part. But on a fight where if you are truly unlucky with RNG and your DP proc is slow, a WD is prob better in the OH. I know for General Vezax I chose to use WD over SR in the OH due to the already slowed melee haste and since I'm on kick duty, the slightly extra FA procs help with keeping a tighter mutilate cycle since I have to kick, and also attacking slower also can result in slower DP stacking.

Hope that helps a bit with your decision.

The crit cap is equal to

100 - 24 (glancing) - white miss chance (24% - hit%) - white dodge chance (6.5 - expertise%)

Example:

I have 205 hit rating from gear, which is 6.25%. I also am talented into Precision and Weapon Expertise, but have no expertise on my gear.

So my crit cap would be:

100 - 24 - (24 - 11.25) - (6.5 - 2.5) = 100 - 24 - 12.75 - 4 = 59.25%. Since crit replaces a hit with a crit, crit caps out at the point where hit no longer exists on the table. Hit turns misses into hits, expertise turns dodges/parries into hits, and nothing can turn glancing blows into hits. So the "hard cap" for crit, as it were, is 76%.

Hello,

So the spreadsheet is not up to-date, i would like to know, for a sword spec, what would be the best choice between [Remorse] and [Rune-Etched Nightblade], with the change on Remorse, it's now 1,5 speed but 15dps higher, so i'm not sure about the best to do.

thanks for answering

Per this post, JC is being nerfed in the next "major content patch" (which I take to mean 3.2). So for now, JC is still our best profession, but it'll be brought in line by the next tier of content.

This really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. With JC'ing being far-and-away the best profession for so many classes it was bound to happen at some point. Frankly, I'm both surprised it took this long to announce it and they're waiting even longer to implement it.

Blizzard has long stated that Professions should be a personal choice and not a requirement. As long as you pick two and use them effectively, they should provide as much benefit as any other two.

Engineering still lags but, unfortunately, it has "The Card Game" to compete with for items.

Kind of bizarre though - the next patch is the one where they're expected to release epic gems/cuts, which will shit all over the JC perk unless they implement another level of BoP cuts as well.

I'd argue Engineering is even stronger than any other profession. The Hyperspeed Accelerators are much weaker than anything JC/LW/BS/Alchemy has to offer, but many people forget the ability to use bombs. [Item not found!] are extremely cheap to make, don't share cooldown with anything relevant (same cooldown as drums), are instant, don't reset the swingtimer and seem to scale with a lot of debuffs/buffs/talents (requires some testing). If I had to take a guess, I'd say it scales at least with HfB, Murder and a 13% spelldamage debuff.
Against a single Boss that comes down to ~30dps (probably more depending on combat length), but it is fairly easy to hit more targets as the range is pretty big.

I think this is really something that should be evaluated and tested.