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Old 03/21/09, 5:36 PM   #466
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Caidon View Post
quick question.. i havent tested it yet but i tested to see if u can use a MH sword and OH dagger with 5 outa 5 CQC and 4 sword and the CQC doesnt work. but the best spec is teh calamity grasp hailstorm.. does the sword spec rrelle prov oh the OH??
Weapon specs apply on a per-weapon basis regardless of what the character sheet tells you. So, the answer is yes.

Originally Posted by Enervate
Yep, still a fucking idiot.

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Old 03/21/09, 9:11 PM   #467
Sebastionleo
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Twisting Nether
Originally Posted by Moon View Post
Yeah it's a nice sword and all, but 2.5 speed is bad. It's simply stupid itemization to have items like that when you have a 2.7 fist dropping as well, not even mentioning the fact that they still have 1.6 offhands still on the table. PPM poisons don't solve every weapon speed issue when you have combat potency, which will always favor a faster weapon of equal dps, and sinister strike, which will always favor a slower weapon of equal dps. To me it doesn't make much sense to put 2.5 and 1.6 weapons in when they are also putting 2.6-7 and 1.4-5 speed weapons in. What's the point? We are going to skip those suboptimal weapons in favor of the correctly itemized weapons.
That's just like saying "why did they make a 1.6 offhand fist when we have 1.4 speed daggers and CQC works for both" or asking why they even make gems other than hit, expertise, AP and AGI. They've never made weapons/items so that they'll be the best possible DPS, because they want us to have to think about what will be best, they're not just going to give everything to us.

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Old 03/21/09, 11:24 PM   #468
sp00n
Bald Bull
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
Originally Posted by Sebastionleo View Post
That's just like saying "why did they make a 1.6 offhand fist when we have 1.4 speed daggers and CQC works for both" or asking why they even make gems other than hit, expertise, AP and AGI. They've never made weapons/items so that they'll be the best possible DPS, because they want us to have to think about what will be best, they're not just going to give everything to us.
That would only work if weapon speed somehow would be tied to the item budget for stat allocation, i.e. a faster main hand weapons can have more stats added to them (or vice versa for off hand).
But as it stands now, given equal DPS and ilevel, slower = better for main hand and faster = better for off hand. There really isn't much to think about at the time being.
Or has there ever been, besides broken mechanics like Shiv spam (Combat) or poisons spinning out of control (Mutilate).

Stopped Playing

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Old 03/22/09, 3:40 PM   #469
CoroHD
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Illidan
So I've finally saved enough to be able to afford the Darkmoon trinket, but with the patch likely coming out before the next darkmoon turnin period (april 6th), and I'm wondering if it would be worth it to invest in a noble deck for use in 3.1.

Wrathstone
Pyrite Infuser
Melee equivalent of Eye of the Broodmother?

vs.

Darkmoon: Greatness

If its second or a close third for best in slot it would definitely be worth it to drop the dough on it, but otherwise I'd rather save my money for some of the BoE items from uldar.

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Old 03/22/09, 3:55 PM   #470
Armanewb
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Executus
Originally Posted by CoroHD View Post
As the items have no tested or stated cooldowns, some assumptions have to be made. I used a very rough assumption model - for on hit procs (such as Greatness, and one of the two states of Wrathstone) I just assumed it would proc every 50s on average (45s internal cooldown), and used a 2min cooldown for the on-use trinkets. I also pulled the EP values off the Handbook, assuming that you are over hit cap in both cases. With those assumptions DMC:G comes out to be 420 EP for both specs, Wrathstone (Chance on hit) is 515.2 for mutilate / 504.4 for combat, Wrathstone (On use, 2min CD) is 315.5 for mutilate / 304.7 for combat and Pyrite Infuser (50s average interval between procs) is 379.8 for both specs above the poison hit cap.

Edit: Changed the numbers for Pyrite Infuser

Last edited by Armanewb : 03/26/09 at 2:57 PM.

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Old 03/22/09, 8:17 PM   #471
Feist-Mok
Im***est.
 
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Human Rogue
 
Ysera
Updated 3-27, as usual PM me if something is wrong.

Okay, so since someone hasn't done this yet, here's a compiled list of all new items of interest to rogues, sorted by slot and ilvl. If this is better spun off into a new T8 Gear Thread, just say the word and I'll do that, but seeing as the Subj. on this one was edited, I'll post it here for now, and try to keep it updated.

One interesting note is that, at least as of now, in all set slots, our highest ilvl pieces available are 226, same as T8 - though this is probably just a case of higher ilvl pieces being undiscovered at the moment.

There are also a few upgrades availiable to any rogue on patch day, most notably, the Inscribed Band of the Kirin Tor, at the cost of a few thousand gold compares reasonably well to anything in game right now.

Daggers
Daschal's Bite
Golem-Shard Sticker
Perilous Bite


MH Weapons
Fists
Golden Saronite Dragon
The Masticator
Swords
Malice

OH Weapons
Fists
Kinetic Ripper
Maces
Stonerender
Bloodcrush Cudgel
Swords
Remorse
Rune-Etched Nightblade

Ranged Weapons
Thrown
Rising Sun
Twirling Blades
Bow/Gun
Siren's Cry
Giant's Bane
Rifle of the Platinum Guard
Avalanche
Golemheart Longbow

Helm
Conqueror's Terrorblade Helmet - Emblem of Conquest
Valorous Terrorblade Helmet
Guise of the Midgard Serpent

Shoulders
Conqueror's Terrorblade Pauldrons
Shoulderpads of the Monolith
Treacherous Shoulderpads
Valorous Terrorblade Pauldrons

Chest
Conqueror's Terrorblade Breastplate - Emblem of Conquest
Winter's Icy Embrace
Tunic of the Limber Stalker
Valorous Terrorblade Breastplate

Legs
Conqueror's Terrorblade Legplates
Leggings of Wavering Shadow - Emblem of Conquest
Proto-hide Leggings - BoE
Leggings of Swift Reflexes
Valorous Terrorblade Legplates

Gloves
Conqueror's Terrorblade Gauntlets
Gloves of the Blind Stalker - Emblem of Conquest
Gloves of the Stonereaper
Valorous Terrorblade Gauntlets

Belt
Death-warmed Belt - BoE
Belt of the Twilight Assassin - Emblem of Conquest
Waistguard of the Creator
Nimble Climber's Belt
Relic Hunter's Cord

Boots
Footpads of Silence - BoE
Flamestalker Boots
Runed Ironhide Boots

Bracer
Mechanist's Bindings

Cloaks
Drape of Icy Intent
Drape of the Lithe
Shawl of the Shattered Giant
Winter's Frigid Embrace

Neck
Broach of the Wailing Night - Emblem of Conquest
Nymph Heart Charm - BoE

Rings
Loop of the Agile
Metallic Loop of the Sufferer
Inscribed Band of the Kirin Tor - Availiable on Patch Day

Trinkets
Wrathstone
Pyrite Infuser

Also of Note: In 3.1 Wintergrasp will make availiable a variety of new trinkets featuring the same on use effect as the classic 2-minute PVP trinket, but with a variety of other stats as an alternative to resilience. Should PvP trinkets become mandatory in any future raid encounters, ala Archimonde/Twins, this could be a Very Big Deal.
Titan-forged Rune of Accuracy - Availiable on Patch Day
Titan-forged Rune of Alacrity - Availiable on Patch Day
Titan-forged Rune of Cruelty - Availiable on Patch Day
Titan-forged Rune of Determination - Availiable on Patch Day

Gems
Delicate Stormjewel - Obtained from the new Fishing Daily in Dalaran.
Rigid Stormjewel - Obtained from the new Fishing Daily in Dalaran.

Last edited by Feist-Mok : 03/27/09 at 4:12 PM.

Originally Posted by missiletoad View Post
You're still up for First Degree Slaughter of English Spelling, so sit the fuck down, defendant.

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Old 03/23/09, 5:11 PM   #472
Rogueyness
Banned
 
Human Rogue
 
Malfurion
Speaking only for Combat Spec Rogues, and how we interact with itemization I have a few key points to bring up speaking of Ideal itemization for Combat Rogues.

ATM the BiS combination for released gear still stands to be CFD(Combat Fist/Daggers) using Respectively
Golden Saronite DragonMH
Golem-Shard StickerOH

After that you have a few viable combinations using new gear. They are as follows.
Combat Fist/Fist using MH Golden Saronite Dragon/ OH Kinetic Ripper

Combat Sword/Sword Using MH Malice/ OH Rune-Etched Nightblade

And using Ranged Siren's Cry currently appearing BiS out of all possibilities by Stat allocation.

An Interesting thing to note would be what the actual variance of DPS for such things as Remorse compared to Rune-Etched Nightblade.

Now most might say its a cut and dry decision but based on how Combat Spec factors OH itemization its not as simple as it may appear. Using general rules for OH DPS speculation you would put Rune-Etched Nightblade at 183 DPS compared to Remorse a 178 DPS base item. Not such a big overall dps difference as it stands already. That is mainly do to the fact Remorse is 13 ILvL higher than Nightblade. But what really comes to factor in now is how much DPS do you gain from Poisons with new PPM System for having a .20 slower item. Also note that Remorse has a higher general Stat allocation from ILVL off the bat. If in fact the dps gained from Poisons for .20 slower is in the range of 6-8 DPS it is quite possible for Remorse to be BiS for sword spec over Nightblade. Much testing would be required.

That also allows me to bring up Stonerender a 178 1.60 mace. I did not mention this because it has no Current MH partner to be released to date. That does not however change that fact that given another Fast Mace also in lines with Nightblade and a Good MH that it couldn't also become BiS.

On all of these notes any combination different than Saronite/Golem ATM is lacking due to the itemization of those 2 items. Golem being a 1.50 Item at 178 DPS better than anything we have seen and Saronite being a 188 DPS item also far better stated than any other available/released items to date. I will do some general testing on the PPM mechanics for poisons, with the 2 following items on PTR in hopes to come to a general conclusion as to DPS gain by slower items compared to faster. Using WD/Split Greathammer comparatively only comparing Poison dps over 5, 6 Minute Attempts using the separate items in MH only.

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Old 03/25/09, 6:06 PM   #473
chalon
Founder of the Chalonverse
 
Chalon
Night Elf Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Two new 1.8s daggers found today:
[Daschal's Bite]
[Shadowbite]

They aren't on Wowhead yet, but posted today fro MMO-Champion:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...h/03_25_12.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...h/03_25_26.jpg

Dashal's at 232 ilvl replaces Sinister Revenge as the best known mainhand currently available.

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Old 03/25/09, 9:27 PM   #474
Arlecchino
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Cenarius
Along with the daggers, there were a couple more items found as well:

Belt: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...h/03_25_15.jpg

Neck: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...h/03_25_25.jpg

Dropped from Trash (25) and General Vezax (10) respectively.

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Old 03/26/09, 7:13 AM   #475
Mideci
Great Tiger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Armanewb View Post
As the items have no tested or stated cooldowns, some assumptions have to be made. I used a very rough assumption model - for on hit procs (such as Greatness, and one of the two states of Wrathstone) I just assumed it would proc every 50s on average (45s internal cooldown), and used a 2min cooldown for the on-use trinkets. I also pulled the EP values off the Handbook, assuming that you are over hit cap in both cases. With those assumptions DMC:G comes out to be 420 EP for both specs, Wrathstone (Chance on hit) is 515.2 for mutilate / 504.4 for combat, Wrathstone (On use, 2min CD) is 315.5 for mutilate / 304.7 for combat and Pyrite Infuser (2min CD) is 235.8 for both specs above the poison hit cap.
Maybe I'm missing something, but the Infuser is a chance on hit, not an on-use. If you assume it has uptime of around 15% that's equivalent to ~180 ap. The hit is worth ~150 ap. That's 330+.

The Wrathstone, by contrast, appears to certainly be an on-use item with a screwy tooltip. So use the second set of numbers.

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Old 03/26/09, 2:55 PM   #476
Armanewb
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Executus
Originally Posted by Mideci View Post
Maybe I'm missing something, but the Infuser is a chance on hit, not an on-use. If you assume it has uptime of around 15% that's equivalent to ~180 ap. The hit is worth ~150 ap. That's 330+.

The Wrathstone, by contrast, appears to certainly be an on-use item with a screwy tooltip. So use the second set of numbers.
You are correct, I must have been half-asleep or something. Using the same weights with a 50s average interval between procs nets 379.8 EP.

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Old 03/29/09, 8:51 AM   #477
mdn
Von Kaiser
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Blackrock
Not that it's important, what with Ulduar on the horizon, but the common conception that Hailstorm and 4/5 sword spec is higher DPS than Webbed Death and CQC+fillers as Combat seems to be false; I can't find any combination in the spreadsheet including best-in-slot options in which this is the case.

Sorry if this was already noted somewhere in the black hole of Rogue theorycraft, it's just been something that I've been trying to figure out since I've started playing Combat recently, and I'd just like a bit of confirmation on this from other posters: have others found the same thing?

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Old 03/29/09, 9:38 AM   #478
Grunge
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Rogue
 
Kor'gall (EU)
Originally Posted by mdn View Post
Not that it's important, what with Ulduar on the horizon, but the common conception that Hailstorm and 4/5 sword spec is higher DPS than Webbed Death and CQC+fillers as Combat seems to be false; I can't find any combination in the spreadsheet including best-in-slot options in which this is the case.

Sorry if this was already noted somewhere in the black hole of Rogue theorycraft, it's just been something that I've been trying to figure out since I've started playing Combat recently, and I'd just like a bit of confirmation on this from other posters: have others found the same thing?
Hmm, with 2/5/5 CG/Hailstorm seems to be superior by 5 dps, with BiS, at 300 duration, 11 dps with 0 dps.

This is with all buffs, human, heroic presence, Stalk-Skin and Dawnwalkers (oddly enough with the exception of 1 precise, full ap seems better and not having expertise capped). Also Footwraps of Vile Deceit seem to be a downgrade.

However the difference is minimal and, as you say, irrelevant in 3.1

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Gods glory to the Heroes.

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Old 04/01/09, 4:27 AM   #479
Larva-on-azshara
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Azshara
sigh

Last edited by Larva-on-azshara : 04/01/09 at 5:26 AM. Reason: figured it out.

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Old 04/01/09, 4:46 AM   #480
saedo
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by Larva-on-azshara View Post
it is really worth giving up the 3 pieces i have for the 4 piece set bonus?
Yes.

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