I must be missing something terribly obvious, but how is a 4% flat bonus to all damage resulting in a 6.2% bonus to DPS?

This is likely due to having several multipliers on some sources of damage and the order in which they are applied in relation to buffs and debuffs; or at least that's all my memory has dredged up. It has been explained before though.

I suppose if murder modified before all other modifiers... somewhat at odds with the phrasing "increases all damage caused" which seems to imply it's applied last.

Do you happen to know where I can dig around to find the actual modifiers and order they are applied to result in this 50% increase in the effectiveness of the talent, if it has been explained before?

So my memory was quite a bit off there, but according to this post, Murder is (and is supposed to be) counted twice for crits.

Rogue Gear Spreadsheet

Aha!

With the lower (relative) crit rate of poisons, etc - I'm not sure how it accounts for >50% increase in DPS, but it certainly makes it more plausible. I'll dig around the spreadsheets for crit rates, and some logs to see if this murder is happening on rupture - at least I'm looking in the right place now.

Thank you very much, Tinwhisker, for tracking down that post.


Edit: Rough estimates; assuming MH crit of 50% and spell crit of 33% (not unreasonable) and a very conservative 20% of mut dps from poisons , that leaves us with an averaged-overall crit of 46.6%.

If every crit is a doubled effectiveness of Murder (including ruptures, I assume, although I'll check those), that's 5.864% DPS increase from Murder - definitely much closer to Aldriana's 6.2%, but still a reasonable gap away. I'll dig into the mut spreadsheet and work out the difference - quite probably all from my rough assumptions above.

Don't forget that while your normal melee crit rate may be 50%, that means your crit rate on Mutilate (the attack) will be in the neighborhood of 65% because of Puncturing Wounds.

Which pushes us up to 49.6ish overall crit, except I included deadly poison crits.

15% IP (32% Spell Crit) = 4.8
19% Mutilate (65% crit) = 12.35
8% Deadly , no crit = 0
58% Remainder (50% crit) = 29

46.15 average crit% hits per DPS = Murder Bonus of 5.84%

Theorycrafting napkin math . Heading home to a real computer shortly, I'm sure I'll be able to figure out the remaining Murder bonus.

What you're missing is that while crits may make up 50% (or whatever) of your *attacks*, they make up a considerably larger portion of your *damage*. That is, under the naive assumption that 50% of your attacks crit and crits do double damage (which isn't even remotely true, but it is illustrative), you have k crits and k noncrits, but the k crits do 2n damage while the noncrits do only n; thus, your baseline damage is 3n, but, when murder is applied, you do 1.04 * (2n * 1.04 + n) = 3.203n damage, which is a good 6.7% more than the baseline.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...10_9901_12.jpg

New ring from Algalon 10 man. Compared to the Algalon 10 man quest reward the stats are:

+6 agility(account for red socket, you had a red in Brann's ring)
-36 crit rating
+46 hit rating
+2 attack power
-2 ArP


I'll plug it in when I get home and edit this, but simply considering hit vs. crit the quest reward ring is most likely still BiS. At first I figured it would pull ahead because of the red socket, but this ring has too much hit.

It depends...that may still end up being a bit better for Mutilate, because Mutilate currently has difficulty hitting the poison hit cap without Blood of the Old God. So by taking that ring, you're afforded some other gear options which might work out better. Or better yet, you probably would run that instead of Loop of the Agile.

See I cant use the spread sheets thats why I was asking. I havent seen how the difference plays out between sword spec and fist/dagger due to the fact I'm the only rogue in my guild. From what I see with PUG groups using the Naxx/Mally sword combos that the fist combo I have been using was better but these two weapons were of better quality wich raised my suspicion. Therefore i wanted to have a look into someones spread sheet who could actualy look at it for me and thankyou Venenos for that I think I will go and blow the mats on two more Beserking enchants.

I gotta admit I'm surprised everytime I see a new trinket.
The design paradigm in Lich King seems to be a passive effect with a quite potent proc with a 10sec duration on a 45 sec cooldown. The immidiate point of this concept seems to be to reward players who pay attention to the proc and make the most of it by using specials during the proc which for rogues means cooldowns and finishers.
In order to evaluate the power of each proc we'll look at a trinkets procs relative power contribution in percent. In order to compare trinkets across patch design concepts we multiply this percentage by the procs duration in seconds and denote this number trinket proc power. Notice we're multiplying the procs relative power by the procs duration in seconds to account for longer procs having a relatively larger chance of cooldown/finisher syncing. As an example you can entirely miss the chance to rupture during a Blood of the Old God proc, while you could rupture twice during a SoC proc (without the glyph).

Very simplified meaning we're leaving out chance to proc and thus not considering realistic uptime but only maximum uptime, let's take Dark Matter: 222EP on the passive effect, (10/45)*612crit*1.67EP/crit=227EP. The proc makes up for 51% of the trinkets strength. 10s*51%=510tpp
Mjolnir: 102*1.67=170EP, (10/45)*665*1.9=280EP. Proc is 62%. 620tpp
Blood of the Old God: 108*1.3=140EP, (10/45)*1284=285EP. Proc is 67%. 670tpp

Now look at some of the TBC trinkets - again simplified and with lich king stat weights.
BNS: 54*1.48=80EP, Assuming the proc took 5 seconds to build during which you'd average 220ap allowing you 15seconds with 440ap you'd have (20/45)*((220+440*3)/4)=171EP, 68% - 1360tpp
MotB: 20*1.3+ 84=110EP, (10/45)*42*1.9=17.7EP, 13% -130tpp
WSC: 21*1.3=27.3EP, (15/30)*142*1.9=135EP, 83% -1245tpp (wtb class trinkets btw)
SoC: 44*1.57=69EP, (20/45)*230=102EP, 59% - 1180tpp
DST: 40EP, (10/20)*325*1.48=240EP, 85% - 850tpp

Disregarding the two trinkets with short internal cooldowns, LK trinkets in general get alot of their power from the procs but score relatively low in terms of tpp due to the short proc duration. As such it seems the idear of rewarding player attention isnt rewarded as much as previously and at the same time maneges to complicate gear preference immensely as the shortened more powerfull procs risk bringing us dangerously close if not above crit and arp caps.

I'm also of the opinion that Blizzard would prefer that players not be able to have so much control over their trinkets through a "use" that they can call on at certain times. With procs, players have the option to capitalize on their trinkets; with "use" players have the option to capitalize on one aspect of a fight.

This is the best justification I've ever read for why proc trinkets are better than use trinkets, which I always thought should be superior.

delete please, answered already

It is hypothesized that bosses have 4.8% crit reduction (explained here), so your crit cap for boss-level mobs should likely be 64.05%.

Level 83 target:
104.8 - 24 (glancing) - white miss chance (24% - hit%) - white dodge chance (6.5 - expertise%)

We don't really have any hard data on it, so it's hard to say for sure. As a ballpark figure: 136 crit is worth around 225 EP; the top trinkets are in the 400-450 range. Thus, for it to compete with BIS, the activated ability needs to be worth around 200 EP, which is somewhere north of 150 DPS. Thus, with 1/3 uptime, it'd need to do about 500 DPS while active to keep up. Now, I don't know how that compares to "hitting like a truck", but it's plausible that it's competitive - and it's plausible that it's not.

Our enhancement shaman has been missing from 25man raids, but here's some data from the remaining bosses they did after YS+0: Ignis, Razorscale and Algalon.

Hopefully he will be there for next resets and I can provide more data.

Well, as a ballpark figure: on Ignis, the shaman did 5500 DPS, and the trinket was 2.3%, which works out to around 130 DPS - which is in the neighborhood of the better trinkets, but pretty clearly not BIS. Plus, unless I miss my guess, the tentacle is stationary and just whacks whatever it's near, which is somewhat of a disadvantage on many fights. So it's probably not a *bad* option, and I can imagine using it on *some* fights, but I doubt it'll find widespread use on *all* fights.

To say more than that, we'll need actual testing of it's mechanics, check if it scales with gear, etc.

The trinket is really random because there is 3 types of tentacles. And as said before the tentacles, once out does not move. So if you are not in a pw-like combat it can be worth only the 136 crit rating it gives.

As Aldriana said, it is a rather good trinket, but a bit far from BiS for rogues.
A war from my guild got it on our 0 keeper guild, i'll try to see if i can get some data.

[Darkmoon Card: Greatness] is BiS because using both [Mjolnir Runestone] and [Grim Toll] when in the other BiS gear puts you well over the 100% ArPen Cap.

Grim Toll is 49.69% and Mjolnir Runestone is listed the same even tho it is more. so with both proced you are over the 100% cap. or at least very close.

My question is, at what base ArPen from gear do you have to be at for the Greatness Trinket to pull inhead of the Grim Toll because of wasted points?

I'm sorry if this question has already been answered, i have been trying to look for this answer for some time.

I'm not sure if I have these numbers totally correct, but I believe the "ArP cap" is 1232, i.e. anything beyond 1232 ArP will be wasted. Since Mjolnir Runestone and Grim Toll both proc 612 ArP, you'll have a total of 1224 ArP with overlapping procs (which is likely). Considering that in most raids you'll have Faerie Fire and Sunder Armor/Expose Armor, you'll be over the ArP cap if you equip both trinkets (well you'll actually be far under the cap while neither proc is active and well over once both are active, bad either way). So, you'll never want to equip both together. You'll probably want to run DMC:G + Grim Toll, and replace Grim Toll once Mjolnir drops for you (excluding Dark Matter and Blood of the Old God).


Edit: I don't think I answered your question. Looking at it again, it seems you are asking how much ArP is needed so that equipping DMC:G over any ArP trinket becomes a dps gain. With an ArP trinket equipped, any ArP from gear beyond 427 is being wasted. However, I am not sure at what point that wasted ArP during the proc becomes bigger DPS loss than equipping DMC:G, you'll have to test that in the spreadsheet yourself.