WotLK Rogue Gear Discussion - Page 35

Kedrin · 06/02/09, 3:26 AM

thanks for the answer. i was unaware that spreadsheet accounted for the 100% cap. it seems that the sheet tells me that if/when the trinket ever drops, over the plate healing gloves that always seem to want to drop, it would be better to replace my grim toll in the gear i am already in.

suicuique · 06/02/09, 5:05 AM

Originally Posted by Joigahdenn

Considering that in most raids you'll have Faerie Fire and Sunder Armor/Expose Armor, you'll be over the ArP cap if you equip both trinkets ...

Neither FF nor Sunder/Expose contribute anything to the ArP cap of 1232 ArP.
They just effect the AC cap which can be penetrated.

• Maestroquark · 06/02/09, 9:10 AM

Originally Posted by Joigahdenn

Since Mjolnir Runestone and Grim Toll both proc 612 ArP,

Mjolnir's tooltip says 612, but the actual affect is 665. A combined proc puts you over the cap.

Joigahdenn · 06/02/09, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by suicuique

Neither FF nor Sunder/Expose contribute anything to the ArP cap of 1232 ArP.
They just effect the AC cap which can be penetrated.

I don't think I quite understand what you are saying, maybe because I'm not even entirely sure if what I said in the first place makes sense.

However, if neither FF nor Sunder/Expose contribute to the ArP Cap of 1232, what am I misunderstanding about this post?

suicuique · 06/02/09, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Joigahdenn

However, if neither FF nor Sunder/Expose contribute to the ArP Cap of 1232, what am I misunderstanding about this post?

This post was written before the ArP mechanic was explicitely explained in a Blue Post (albeit with minor errors). It turned out to be different than assumed.
In brief:
1) sunder/expose,FF (and I believe Serrating Blades too) affect how much armor is subject to penetration
2) gear + food + procs + talents (like mace spec) affect how much of aforementioned armor is actually penetrated. As such this is the sum that is capped by 100%.

Lightshadow · 06/02/09, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by Joigahdenn

I'm not sure if I have these numbers totally correct, but I believe the "ArP cap" is 1232, i.e. anything beyond 1232 ArP will be wasted. Since Mjolnir Runestone and Grim Toll both proc 612 ArP, you'll have a total of 1224 ArP with overlapping procs (which is likely). Considering that in most raids you'll have Faerie Fire and Sunder Armor/Expose Armor, you'll be over the ArP cap if you equip both trinkets (well you'll actually be far under the cap while neither proc is active and well over once both are active, bad either way). So, you'll never want to equip both together. You'll probably want to run DMC:G + Grim Toll, and replace Grim Toll once Mjolnir drops for you (excluding Dark Matter and Blood of the Old God).

Edit: I don't think I answered your question. Looking at it again, it seems you are asking how much ArP is needed so that equipping DMC:G over any ArP trinket becomes a dps gain. With an ArP trinket equipped, any ArP from gear beyond 427 is being wasted. However, I am not sure at what point that wasted ArP during the proc becomes bigger DPS loss than equipping DMC:G, you'll have to test that in the spreadsheet yourself.

Your reasoning is sound but your statement that one would 'never' want to equip both ArP trinkets is too strong. Even if some of the Armor Pen from the second proc is wasted when both trinkets are up, a) it's not wasted when only one of the trinkets is up (which is more and more likely to be true in longer fights that aren't mimiron), and b) being at the armor pen cap is still very good. If you have 4p t8 (with its huge boost to agility's value) or you're running maces (with their inherent armor pen), it's likely that greatness > grim toll. For the rest of us, though, GT & MR is better than anything not involving dark matter or blood of the old god.

Jeppathum · 06/03/09, 7:08 AM

If those two trinkets have exactly the same proc chance, length and internal cooldown, as I believe they do, then the chances of them getting out of sync to the extent that only one procs at a time is pretty slim. It is reasonable to think that it might take a few extra hits for one to proc, giving it maybe a second delay, but next time round it's just as likely for it to be the other that is delayed by a second, putting them back in sync.

suicuique · 06/03/09, 7:32 AM

Originally Posted by Jeppathum

If those two trinkets have exactly the same proc chance, length and internal cooldown, as I believe they do, then the chances of them getting out of sync to the extent that only one procs at a time is pretty slim. It is reasonable to think that it might take a few extra hits for one to proc, giving it maybe a second delay, but next time round it's just as likely for it to be the other that is delayed by a second, putting them back in sync.

This is quite a bold statement to make.
Without going into depths of the theoretical chance of both trinkets getting resynched (keepn in mind that the chance of both trinkets getting more out of synch are the same as getting resynched and the duration of the procs is quite small), I'd like to point to a post in the druid forum which might give some empirical insight:

FeralbyNight (Cat & Bear simulation tool)

Going by these data points (the only I know), I'd say that the overlap is while not insignificant, certainly not definite enough to rule out equipping both trinkets a priori.

Jeppathum · 06/03/09, 8:05 AM

One thing that might be worth considering when comparing druid mechanics is the relative attack speeds of ferals and rogues, and even the difference between combat and muti. It seems to me that as a mutilate rogue you will be striking the mob much more often, therefore the delay between proc chances would be reduced compared to a combat rogue or feral druid. I admit that I have only every played my druid on two feet, so I'm not that familiar with the details of feral mechanics, so this could be way off the mark.

strawberryfm · 06/03/09, 11:00 AM

I'm a bit confused when using the latest spreadsheet with my Combat Goal Set (not gemming arp, gemming agi for dual speccing) where Mjolnir + Grim Toll (7741DPS) beats Mjolnir + DM:G (7671DPS) by 70 DPS and beats Mjolnir + Blood of the Old God (7661DPS) by 80 DPS while "everyone" in this thread states that it is not the BiS.

The gear is pretty close to if not exactly the same as the "Combat 2" set Aldriana posted a while back, with GSD MH and Bladetwister OH

I hope I did something wrong in the sheet, since I passed Grim Toll over and over while it was crap and my guild has stopped doing naxxramas.. :P

MerkeMan · 06/03/09, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by strawberryfm

The gear is pretty close to if not exactly the same as the "Combat 2" set Aldriana posted a while back

How close is close? By using both, the proc places you above the (I assume the spreadsheet accounts for) Arp. Cap. As far as I'm aware there's still on-going discussion for at what point does a different trinket (We can assume DMC:G) beats the Arp given by using the additional second trinket up to the cap. You say it's close to Combat Set 2, does that include the gear that has the Arp on it? The more you have, the worse it gets

And I assume from the 7.8k output you're taking all sunders and Armour Ignores in to account.

Also, I've hunted around a bit and found nothing (This question is 'Is there one?), but is there a set-list for BiS < or = iLevel 226? For the Algalon achievement? And if not, is there a chance that one will be implemented into this post?

PessimiStick · 06/03/09, 11:16 AM

GT was never crap for Combat. It's been the second-best for a long, long time.

In any case, if the particular setup that you are using doesn't have a lot of passive ArP (and typically when you're not gemming for it), it's possible to use enough of the procs that Mjolnir/GT is still better than anything else.

Mavanas · 06/03/09, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Jeppathum

If those two trinkets have exactly the same proc chance, length and internal cooldown, as I believe they do, then the chances of them getting out of sync to the extent that only one procs at a time is pretty slim. It is reasonable to think that it might take a few extra hits for one to proc, giving it maybe a second delay, but next time round it's just as likely for it to be the other that is delayed by a second, putting them back in sync.

This has been modeled using simulation by me and analytically using probability theory by Aldriana for Grim Toll and Mjolnir combination. Our findings were close. Each trinket individually has about 21% uptime. In a five minute fight, on average the uptime of both trinkets being up is around 10-11% and for each trinket 10% of the time they are up alone. For the remaining 68%, none are up.

Lightshadow · 06/03/09, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Mavanas

This has been modeled using simulation by me and analytically using probability theory by Aldriana for Grim Toll and Mjolnir combination. Our findings were close. Each trinket individually has about 21% uptime. In a five minute fight, on average the uptime of both trinkets being up is around 10-11% and for each trinket 10% of the time they are up alone. For the remaining 68%, none are up.

I haven't tried running it through your simulator, but I have played around with Aldriana's sheet a fair bit and I imagine they're also quite similar in that said overlap in a five minute fight is rather frontloaded. Aldriana's sheet predicts that the shared uptime in the first two minutes is something like 16.3% and the last two minutes of a five minute fight is about 6.2% If you had an even longer fight, say eight minutes, predicted shared uptime is down to 1.2% In short, in longer fights they DO get out of sync.

Side Note: This actually has a nasty side effect of making fight length a much more important variable to consider in doing theorycraft. I know Aldriana's spreadsheet is very directly designed to avoid having large changes when you suddenly hit another proc or cooldown, but often what really matters is dps in one phase of a fight. For instance, one tends to spend anywhere between two and four minutes fighting thorim before the part where DPS is critical actually begins (thus trinkets tend to be relatively out of sync), whereas a fight like mimiron is probably better thought of as a series of 1-2 minute fights.

Tholofonos · 06/04/09, 1:58 PM

New loot discovered on Algalon25, specifically what are likely now our BiS bracers (for mut, at least), here.

EDIT: Additionally, the socket bonus for Brann's Sealing Ring is now known to be +4 agility. By analogy with the Judgment at the Eye of Eternity in normal/heroic, I'm willing to bet that Brann's Signet Ring's socket bonus is also +4 agility.

Tinwhisker · 06/04/09, 4:10 PM

Originally Posted by Tholofonos

New loot discovered on Algalon25, specifically what are likely now our BiS bracers (for mut, at least), here.

Because we're now sharing gear with feral druids (who must tank), it's becoming apparent that it will be a struggle not to go over the expertise cap with BiS DPS gear. Wasted stat points make me a sad panda.

• Maestroquark · 06/04/09, 4:36 PM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

Because we're now sharing gear with feral druids (who must tank), it's becoming apparent that it will be a struggle not to go over the expertise cap with BiS DPS gear. Wasted stat points make me a sad panda.

In BiS there's a whole 2 items with expertise on rating them, just enough to 16 Expertise Where's the problem?

The only problem with Expertise is the build that wants it (Mutilate) can't get it talented, which means trying to share gear/gems between the builds is much harder.

Tinwhisker · 06/04/09, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Maestroquark

In BiS there's a whole 2 items with expertise on rating them, just enough to 16 Expertise Where's the problem?

Actually if the bracers make BiS for Mutilate, that brings it to four (not two).
Soul Devouring Cinch (56)
Conquerors Terrorblade Chest (76)
Shoulderpads of the Intruder (47)
Solar Bindings (47)

That's 226 expertise rating, 12 over the cap for BiS. Not too bad at that point but then look at the items that are 'just below' BiS and you see things like Golem Shard Sticker (29), Runed Ironhide Boots (56), Belt of the Twilight Assassin (57), and several others. Until you have full BiS it's a harrowed juggling act to keep from blowing past the cap. And then, at full BiS you still end up over by a small amount.

• Aldriana · 06/04/09, 5:04 PM

Thing is, Shoulderpads of the Intruder are included only because you needed the expertise. If you actually run the numbers, Legguards of Cunning Deception as the nonset piece is comparable if not superior DPS. So with the advent of another expertise piece, you probably just make that switch, fiddle with socketing a bit, and call it good.

Elbereth · 06/05/09, 9:04 AM

Originally Posted by Auturgist

I think, when it comes to raiding, as long as you only break a T7 set bonus to gain a T8 set bonus, you shouldn't have any problems.

currently have 2 x T7,5(glove, shoulder) and 2 x T8(helm, legs).

According to spreadsheet changing the T 7,5 shoulders (and losing the T7 bonus by doing so) with [Shoulderpads of the Monolith] is better. Just wondering if its correct and having this over T7 bonus is better ?

Quinine · 06/05/09, 9:50 AM

If you're running Combat, the 2/5 bonus is worth ~42 EP. The difference between [Valorous Bonescythe Pauldrons] and [Shoulderpads of the Monolith] is ~60 EP. So yes it's better to equip them.

koaschten · 06/05/09, 12:19 PM

Looking at the Combat sheet, even though the Solar Bindings are a rough 45EP upgrade, they are a 40-50dps downgrade for Combat BiS due to wasted expertise compared to the [Fluxing Energy Coils].

• Maestroquark · 06/05/09, 1:17 PM

The difference is big enough to work around. I'm getting this to be ~20 DPS higher when I make the following swaps:

[Conqueror's Terrorblade Breastplate] -> [Embrace of the Gladiator]
[Fluxing Energy Coils] -> Solar Bindings
[Legguards of Cunning Deception] -> [Conqueror's Terrorblade Legplates]

• Aldriana · 06/05/09, 4:14 PM

I played with this for a while last night and it appears to me that sticking with Fluxing Energy Coils is marginally better than using Solar Bindings + Embrace of the Gladiator + T8 Legs. Unfortunately, the exact margin of superiority is hard to pin down due to crit-capping effects - I'm working on a solution for that, but it might be a while before I have a good solution.

bankyz · 06/07/09, 3:53 PM

Now that I have a few Ulduar 25 pieces and 4/5 8.5 but I'm not recieving the DPS increase I expected with set bonus I'm worried I might have passed crit cap. Whats the crit cap for someone with my gear? > The World of Warcraft Armory.