I also wouldn't be surprised if we see a move in what fast OH weapons exist to make them suitable for threat weapons for the Prot Warriors and Paladins of the world, much as we saw in the final tier of TBC content - a 1.4-1.5 Sword or Mace with Hit, Expertise, Agi, Stam and a Socket has a fair amount of overlap in it's desirability.

This is the kind of lazy, softheaded change that only a software developer could think of. Really, they should've just tokened the weapon system ala AQ40. Combat rogues and enhancement shamans don't exactly share the same stat priorities and trying to shoehorn both classes into one weapon type seems asinine when they could just give us a [Rusted Blade of Whatever] to turn in for something tailored to our class. It will be really interesting to see what happens with the new DK dual-wield talent. If it's intended to make dual wield their primary DPS mode, the 3.2 uber axe could have a very interesting stat distribution.

What in the world are you talking about? How is the talent change of Sword Spec becoming "Hack and Slash" (Swords/Axes) going to screw anyone over? It's not as if you're going to wake up and find that your weapons are suddenly ineffective. I don't understand your comment about this change screwing over anyone with a Fist MH. If you are Fist/Dagger CQC right now, you can still be Fist/Dagger CQC after the patch. I believe that Aldriana's comment about expecting to see slow Fist MHs be replaced by Axe MHs in the next patch was referring to the next tier of content, not the current weapons. I seriously doubt that Blizzard is going to "transform" existing Fist MHs into Axes overnight so that GSD becomes an Axe, thus ruining all CQC rogues. Forgive me if I am misunderstanding your "NOW WE'RE SCREWED" comment, but I don't know how else to interpret it.

I see this moving us more towards a system like Aldriana stated, where we can expect to see slow MHs like Fists and Axes that are shared between Rogues and Shamans, and then more specialized "faster" OHs like Swords and Daggers that will be customized more for Rogues. Whether or not you benefit from any racial weapon expertise benefit, that is certainly only a perk and not enough to "screw" a certain race of rogues over.

Personally I feel that shared itemization is more beneficial to us in the long run. I would rather see a single slow MH with a 10% drop rate that we have to share with Shamans than see 2 separate rogue- and shaman-specific MHs each with a 5% drop rate. Yes there will now be more competition on the MH weapons that we want, but it also could result in an increased chance to actually see those weapons drop. There's no benefit to having Rogue-only weapons that no other class can "steal" from us, because that would require such a large loot table of class-specific weapons that we would rarely even see the one that we want drop.

Yeah, I fail at reading today. That's exactly what he meant, and I misread it to mean "transformation" within the existing tier.

Apologies for my condescension to anyone involved.

EDIT: In any event, with 5 encounters in the next raid instance, how many weapon drops do you really expect to see? Figure you need 4ish 2handers, 10ish 1-handers, a feral staff, and several caster weapons across the raid? Unless every encounter is guaranteed to drop 1x weapon, I think we'll still be using our Ulduar weapons (especially hard-mode 239) for the foreseeable future.

Of course, we'll know a lot more about all this once we see how Colliseum is itemized.

Well, so, skimming through the edits, I think the point here is that mace itemization is not clearly inferior to sword itemization - there are 232 weapons for both hands of matching speeds (2.6/1.5). Which is true. The difference here is that, in the abstract, assuming weapons of totally identical quality save for type, sword spec is the strongest of the three specs. Consider, with my current gear, the damage done by dual 239 PvP weapons:

CQC: 7378.4
Swords: 7370.5
Maces: 7329.2

That is: swords are significantly stronger than maces assuming identical weapons - almost as good as CQC despite the fact that the OH dagger is 1.4 speed while the OH Sword and Mace are 1.5 speed.

Basically: CQC performs well given that there are OHs faster than are available than for the other specs. Swords are a reasonable option given that it's in the abstract the strongest spec, which compensates to some extent for the inferior itemization. And maces, having neither advantage, just lose.

So: if they provide 1.4 speed maces (while leaving swords at 1.5) and providing MH weapons of comparable speed, ilvl, and itemization budget, all three specs would be somewhat competitive. Consider: I'm currently using Serlifas/Void Sabre, the best available sword option, and my estimated DPS is 7492.9. If I change the weapon type to fist/dagger and up the OH to 1.4, they do 7488.2. And if I instead convert to maces, again with a 1.4 speed OH, they do 7496.7. And that's about as close together as you can reasonably expect to see.

Thus: CQC and Swords are reasonably balanced given current itemization options - CQC wins because there are ilvl 239 options, and the best 232 fist is 2.7 versus 2.6 for the best sword. Maces are generally uninteresting due to lack of a 1.4 speed OH. Which is why, in the next patch, I expect to see 1.4 speed daggers, 1.5 speed swords, and 1.4 speed maces, with MHs being mostly 2.6 and 2.7 speed axes, fists, and maces, which will double as Enh shaman weapons. And which weapon spec is best will be a function of which one has options of the highest ilvl. Or at least, that's what I'm hoping.

They've also said that when it comes to class/item relationships, it's classes they'll tweak, not items. In other words, if the stats don't appeal to one class that HAS to share the weapon, they'll change the class. Example: making enh shamans care more about Armor Pen, which was mentioned in their Q&A. With rogues being able to wield axes, that explains it.

It's not a softheaded change at all, it's a practical one for them.



I'm frankly more concerned over the fact that simply because the Combat spec has a wider choice of weapons, it will become the de facto spec (perhaps subtelty too one day). Leaving efficiency and current itemization aside for a second, there will simply be more drops for a combat spec than mutilate. That's not really giving us much choice as far as specs go.

But all this is something that can only be fixed for the next expansion anyway.

Sure, but you need to look at more than just 3.2. There's also all the existing content. That's why I said to forget about current itemization issues and/or efficiency of the specs. Generally speaking, you'll see more drops for one spec than another, which isn't ideal for a pure class.

Either way, it's almost off-topic since it can't be fixed for a content patch.

I don't think players should worry about one spec having more drops than another, isn't that why we have multiple *gasp* specs for? We don't know who or why, but someone on the Item team loves daggers and generally ensures there's always 1-2 more dagger drops compared to other weapons in the same tier of content. We shouldn't see any spec losing out really unless a player is just that unlucky with drops, and if that is the case then that player ought to be speccing based on the available gear to him.

Just for a quick review, let's look at some quick numbers of available epic melee DPS weapons for TBC. I included arena epics because they are/were readily available to most people.

16 Maces
20 Axes
24 Fists
25 Swords (27 if you throw in the Warglaives)
29 Daggers

Not too bad of a spread, let's look at some fast numbers for WotLK epic melee DPS weapons so far... (Arena weapons included)

13-ish Axes (looks like there might be 2-3 extra PVP axes that probably don't exist)
19 Maces
23 Swords
24 Fists
35 Daggers

Definitely a jump in the number of accessible daggers for the current expansion compared to TBC, especially considering LK is at 2 tiers of content vs the 3.5 tiers of TBC.

Someone who is specced mutilate and can't get new daggers to come their way should grab other weapons and adapt to the current situation rather than waiting things out for the super magical drop that just wont drop for them. Given the rough numbers, I don' t see how anyone relying on melee daggers should ever worry about being "forced" into another spec as it looks like there will always be at least as many (or more) daggers versus other one hand melee weapons.

Edit: Changed numbers of axes to remove the 2 that are Hunter only. For those that absolutely must know, I did a fast search on Wowhead and then filtered out non-melee DPS weapons. While it is much more difficult to get Arena weapons these days, they are an option for rogues to use if necessary.

Well comperatively you can look at it as: 81 non-daggers, 35 daggers.

I think the main problem is just bad itemization.

Yes while there's a similar number of non-daggers, they're usually inferior to a single spec, with CG in Naxx, GSD in Ulduar making Fist/Dagger the dominant choice. This was also the case in TBC where Sword Spec dominated due to the availability of no alternatives (and sword spec is/was very good).

Also with WoTLK mutilate was viable again and I assume blizzard wanted people to have more chance to use it.


What I would personally like is the phasing out of Fists.
While usable by shaman, slow fists have been mainly main-hand only, which limits their potential for shamans (ie GSD/CoI is bis for shaman) and not usable by death knights.
Fast fists have been inferior to daggers.

Another thing to consider is that there's no use for fast offhand weapons beyond rogues, thus bloating the loot tables even more.
If FA and CP would be changed to a similar PPM-like method as poisons, it would eliminate the need for fast offhands.

Ideally, we'd want top-end weapons to be Axes and Swords, since they would cater to the widest audience and also account for racials and in general is the best spec, normalizing FA and CP would allow the current 5 offhands out of 10 1h melee DPS to be changed to viable alternatives and "options".

Although I doubt Blizzard would implement such a change at least not in a content patch. Perhaps in the Expansion.

Where are you getting those numbers from,? Even counting offhand and mainhand axes from each WOTLK arena season there aren't 15 axes. Arena weapons shouldn't even be under consideration when we're talking about pve content, as far as axes go there are a grand total of two dps axes, one mainhand and one offhand.

I think there has been a lot more focus played on Mutilate in this expansion; in fact, there has been for every spec of every class. TBC, it was all about and always about Combat Swords with the Warglaives. I don't think there was a competitive option for Rogue. Daggers are on the rise due to Mutilate having them as a core need; unlike with Combat where a simple respec can switch between Swords/Fists/Maces etc. the same cannot be done on Muti side (Well, not yet anyway, we know what Blizz is like *grins* Muti Axes will be interesting)

We can definately expect a large influx of slow axes; the question is will the OH swords keep up or be as much of a let-down as they were for 3.0/3.1. I've also grown quite attached to my 5% Crit increase, especially with Rupture critting now.

Why do you think CQC does not affect rupture? I think it uses the same crit rate as any other attack, such as sinister strike for example.

With each ss you make extra swing thats why the crit bonus affects there but with rupture you just apply bleed efect wich has nothing to do with the wpn type you are playing. But after thinking now you guys might be right and I`m wrong but can't find a way to check this.

Rupture, like all finishers, is performed with the main hand weapon (and can, for instance, proc main hand attacks). Thus, unless there's evidence to suggest otherwise (and feel free to present such evidence), the logical assumption is that it would use MH crit rate, which would include CQC.

A question comes to mind, if your crit rate changes in between ruptures, would the tick crit rate change along with it, or would it go by the crit rate you had when you applied it?

In light of saedo's question, another question comes to mind. *If* crit rate affects rupture the same way AP does (i.e. rupture ticks go by the crit rate you had when you applied it), then how would overwriting rupture work? Would both AP and crit rate need to be higher relative to when you applied the last rupture? Maybe this is a moot point since one shouldn't be overwriting ruptures in the first place, but it does occasionally happen.

I don't believe crits are pre calculated so it just goes by whether the non crit damage per tick is larger or not.

A few interesting tidbits from PTR that I didn't see posted:

Coliseum 25 Normal Melee Trinket: When you deal damage you have a chance to gain Paragon, increasing your Strength or Agility by 450 for 15 sec. Your highest stat is always chosen.

Rogue T9 2pc Set Bonus: Your Rupture ability has a chance each time it deals damage to reduce the cost of your next ability by 40 energy.
Rogue T9 4pc Set Bonus: Increases the critical strike chance of your Hemorrhage, Sinister Strike, Backstab, and Mutilate abilities by 5%.

Rogue

* Rogue T9 2P Bonus (Rupture) (Class: Rogue) -- Your Rupture ability has a chance each time it deals damage to reduce the cost of your next ability by 40 energy.
* Rogue T9 4P Bonus (Hemorrhage, Sinister Strike, Backstab, and Mutilate) (Class: Rogue) -- Increases the critical strike chance of your Hemorrhage, Sinister Strike, Backstab, and Mutilate abilities by 5%.

The 2 piece sounds OP, the 4 piece sounds like it should be the 2 piece.

Edit: posted before refresh.

Probably a nasty ICD with the 2 piece, sadly.

Keep in mind it is HIGHLY possible that alot of these bonus' are still place holder. Most of the 4pc bonus' are crit to some ability and some of them don't even make sense with current game mechanics.

Well, the 4/5 T9 bonus is clearly underwhelming - in my current gear, it's worth only 113 EP, which is quite a bit less than the other 4/5 set bonuses. The 2/5 is a bit less clear-cut - it's going to depend very heavily on the proc rate. If the proc rate is, like, 10%, it's going to be extremely good - dare I say overpowered. If it's 1%, it's going to be utterly useless crap - to the extent that we'll probably just skip T9 in favor of keeping 4/5 T8. So we'll have to wait and see what the numbers actually look like before we can comment on its viability.