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Old 06/27/09, 9:38 PM   #951
robfang
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Rogue
 
The Venture Co (EU)
Originally Posted by Jimmywibble View Post
I know everybody is discussing 3.2 at this point, but I do have a question regarding the current raiding gear.

With the agi gemming combat spec listed on the front page of this thread, what is the reasoning behind Mjolnirs and DCG being the trinkets of choice? If you go with Grim Toll + Mjolnirs, and they both proc, is it that much over the arpen cap to not warrant such a choice? I'm just unsure of the reasoning behind using DCG for this particular setup.
Yes, they are that much above.

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Old 06/27/09, 10:34 PM   #952
Joigahdenn
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Cenarius
Read the FAQ.

The simple short answer is that yes, if both proc together you're wasting a lot of ArP to the cap. If they had different proc behaviors, it would be a better combo. But, it really depends on your gear and other available trinkets, for some gear sets GT and MR are the best option, but generally if you have DMC:G its better to go with MR+DMC:G or GT+DMC:G.

Edit: Sorry, didn't see the thread went beyond the post I was answering.

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Old 07/04/09, 2:09 PM   #953
Toxaris
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Terokkar (EU)
Sorry on desturbing like this i just wonder if some one help me whit this problem. I am wondering dose [Mirror of Truth] stack whit [Pyrite Infuser] !!

Thx alot!

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Old 07/04/09, 2:15 PM   #954
saedo
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by Toxaris View Post
Sorry on desturbing like this i just wonder if some one help me whit this problem. I am wondering dose [Mirror of Truth] stack whit [Pyrite Infuser] !!

Thx alot!

They're independent procs, so yes they can stack.

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Old 07/07/09, 9:58 PM   #955
evoslayer
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Rogue
 
Azjol-Nerub
A while ago I saw Blood of the old god being touted as part of a best in slot mutilate set, (this was before dark mater and comet's trail but I do not have those) last night I got Blood of the Old God because I thought it would be an upgrade, I don't have that much hit, however all of my spreadsheets are showing DCG and Mjolnir to be superior, I trust the spreadsheet but this leaves me wondering whether something has changed in the understanding of these trinkets or if I simply need more of the best in slot set to bring my hit low enough that Blood will be superior to DCG.

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Old 07/08/09, 1:55 AM   #956
Mavanas
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Lightning's Blade
BotOG should be a better trinket than MR if it does not put you over the spell hit cap. So check what your hit is at with full raid buffs in the spreadsheet, it is very easy to go over the cap with the extra 108 rating from the trinket.

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Old 07/08/09, 3:13 AM   #957
evoslayer
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Orc Rogue
 
Azjol-Nerub
Using your simulation sheet I find that Blood is better under the hit cap, however using aldriana's sheet Blood is coming out dramatically lower than both DCG and Mjolnir in all situations, any explanation as to why this is?

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Old 07/08/09, 7:21 AM   #958
MassMan
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Ravencrest (EU)
2 quick questions: I've got both Remorse and Rune-Etched Nightblade.

A) Is the 0.1 faster speed really enough for Rune-Etched Nightblade to offset Remorse's 13 ilevels advantage? (I'm not expertise capped)
B) I assume fast offhand is even more important for swords(+axes soon) than other weapon specs because of Hack and Slash?

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Old 07/08/09, 8:11 AM   #959
Feist-Mok
Bald Bull
 
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Human Rogue
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by MassMan View Post
2 quick questions: I've got both Remorse and Rune-Etched Nightblade.

A) Is the 0.1 faster speed really enough for Rune-Etched Nightblade to offset Remorse's 13 ilevels advantage? (I'm not expertise capped)
B) I assume fast offhand is even more important for swords(+axes soon) than other weapon specs because of Hack and Slash?
In reverse:

B) Yes.

A) You should use a spreadsheet to answer that question for you.

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Old 07/08/09, 8:44 AM   #960
Mavanas
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Lightning's Blade
Originally Posted by evoslayer View Post
Using your simulation sheet I find that Blood is better under the hit cap, however using aldriana's sheet Blood is coming out dramatically lower than both DCG and Mjolnir in all situations, any explanation as to why this is?

The EP values in the pocket guide are a bit out of date, but they are the best posted values I have. Poison Hit = 1.84, white hit = 1.2, agility = 1.97. BotOG is 108 hit rating and 1284 AP with 17.5% uptime, so not counting any synergies, you will have 423 EP below poison cap and 354 above. DMC:G is 90 agility and 300 more agility with 32.6% uptime, for a total of 370 EP. So if you are below poison hit cap by at least 108 rating, BotOG is clearly better. If you are above poison hit cap, BotOG is slightly worse than DMC:G. If you are somewhere in between, BotOG could be better or worse, really depends on how much of the 108 hit contributes to your spell hit.

EP values do change with gear, so you would have to check in Aldriana's spreadsheet what values you get for your gear. But I doubt the values would change enough to significantly alter relative values of these two trinkets. For instance in BiS gear with all the RNG inherent in estimation of EP values using simulation method, I am getting 499 EP for BotOG before the cap and 382 after the cap. DMC:G is 432. So again which one is better depends how low you are on hit, but if you are clearly below the poison hit cap, as in 51/7/13 case for instance, BotOG should come out ahead. Note that the relative position of EP values of the trinkets did not change much, in particular between BotOG before the cap and DMC:G.

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Old 07/08/09, 2:44 PM   #961
Shaker
AUGH CHAMPION TIME
 
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Human Rogue
 
Elune
Don't forget that Ald's spreadsheet always values hit at ABOVE the spell hit cap, even if you're not above it, so in cases where you're below the spell hit cap, it undervalues items with hit. Check the DPS estimates, as those will be more accurate than EP values in this case.

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Old 07/09/09, 2:44 PM   #962
minuten1
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Thrall
Flask

Is Flask of endless rage really needed? My rogue does 6k+ dps in 25 Uld and is geared to go into next raid content. With or without flask my dps doesn't change much so im curious if others still use the flask.

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Old 07/09/09, 2:49 PM   #963
dinesh
Piston Honda
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Dalaran
Depends on your point of view I suppose.

On one end of the spectrum, it's only "really needed" if you wouldn't have killed a boss without it, but would if you did flask. On the other side, it's really needed if it causes you to do any additional DPS which helps your guild move through the instance better, faster, harder. Most of us are somewhere in the middle; here at EJ, I imagine we are skewed more towards the latter than the former.

My guild is still moving through progression content, so I personally always use one. It helps that they are on the same timer as poisons now, so I just do it all during the required hourly rebuff.

[edit: woops, forgot to reconsolidate into paragraphs after doing some post editing.]

Last edited by dinesh : 07/09/09 at 3:13 PM.

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Old 07/09/09, 2:54 PM   #964
Mavanas
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Lightning's Blade
Your flask increases your dps by about 144, or almost 2.5%. Whether to use or not to use it is completely up to you and perhaps your raid leader. There is nothing you really "have" to do in this game, but depending on how much you care about your performance, you will not only flask, but eat food, use speed potions and even thistle tea when it matters most.

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Old 07/09/09, 3:04 PM   #965
Tinwhisker
Bald Bull
 
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Dwarf Rogue
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by minuten1 View Post
Is Flask of endless rage really needed? My rogue does 6k+ dps in 25 Uld and is geared to go into next raid content. With or without flask my dps doesn't change much so im curious if others still use the flask.
If there's any remote chance that you're lower DPS will cause or contribute to a wipe (enrage timer, adds, etc), then you absolutely must flask. If, however, you're just going through the motions on Razorscale on your way to the later juicy bits then it's hardly necessary.

There's some middle ground/gray area in between those examples and I suspect that's what you're really asking about. That's really where it's up to you and whatever policy your raid leader sets.


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Old 07/09/09, 3:21 PM   #966
Kytrarewn
In 1st, e-brake activated.
 
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Kytrarewn
Undead Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by minuten1 View Post
Is Flask of endless rage really needed? My rogue does 6k+ dps in 25 Uld and is geared to go into next raid content. With or without flask my dps doesn't change much so im curious if others still use the flask.
Your Rogue has multiple 10 man (hint, not the good ones) and Naxxramas items remaining and has yet to tag a single keeper on 25 man. let alone a hardmode.

You should also probably fix your gems. There's no good reason to use an 8hit/12stam gem, especially when you're at 300+ hit already, and no particularly good reason to have more than one blue gem in your gear anyway.

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Old 07/09/09, 4:14 PM   #967
Joigahdenn
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Cenarius
This discussion of flasks, and more generally using personal buffs that benefit the raid has got me wondering whether using Flame Cap would still be useful (or worth the effort, to put it more succinctly)? When WotLK came out I stopped using both Thistle Tea and Flame Caps, but started using Thistle Tea again to help stabilize my rotation when things get ugly.

Any thoughts?

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Old 07/09/09, 4:29 PM   #968
Tinwhisker
Bald Bull
 
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Dwarf Rogue
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Joigahdenn View Post
This discussion of flasks, and more generally using personal buffs that benefit the raid has got me wondering whether using Flame Cap would still be useful (or worth the effort, to put it more succinctly)? When WotLK came out I stopped using both Thistle Tea and Flame Caps, but started using Thistle Tea again to help stabilize my rotation when things get ugly.

Any thoughts?
There wouldn't be anything wrong with using Flame Caps, just remember that they share a cooldown with Healthstones. I don't know about anyone else but the use of Healthstones to take some pressure off the healers at certain times is probably more valuable to my raid group when we're doing hard modes than the potential DPS increase. Of course, your mileage may vary.


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Old 07/09/09, 6:11 PM   #969
Mavanas
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Lightning's Blade
Does anyone know the chance to proc and internal cooldown of the flame caps? I could add it to the simulation.

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Old 07/09/09, 6:53 PM   #970
Tinwhisker
Bald Bull
 
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Dwarf Rogue
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Mavanas View Post
Does anyone know the chance to proc and internal cooldown of the flame caps? I could add it to the simulation.
I did some digging, this is the only thing I was able to come up with that addressed it. Circa April 2007 so that may very well be different from now.

Rogue DPS Spreadsheet


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Old 07/11/09, 5:25 AM   #971
traxis
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Magtheridon
New 5 man dungeon ArP + AP Proc Trinket

Any thoughts on the value of this trinket compared to the likes of the current most popular trinkets? It was just discovered on the PTR. Passive 84 ArP, 1008 ap Proc.

(see link)

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My thoughts:

Darkmoon's 90 agi ~= 84 Passive ARP > Grim Toll's passive Hit rating, or MoT Crit

1008 ap Proc < Grim Toll's ArP proc

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Old 07/20/09, 3:32 PM   #972
Cirocco
Piston Honda
 
Undead Rogue
 
Stormrage (EU)
After having a look at MMO Champion drops from the PTR I'm a little puzzled.

This

Lionhead Slasher
Epic
Binds when picked up
Axe
One-Hand
Speed 1.60
220 - 409 Damage
(196.6 damage per second)
+58 Stamina
+58 Agility
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 80
Item Level 245
Equip: Increases your armor penetration rating by 39.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 39.
Equip: Increases attack power by 78.

Is supposed to be for which class? It's to slow for rogues and, unless Shaman needs have changed, to fast for Shaman. Why are they repeatedly itemising axes and swords at 1.6 and 1.5 speed? Do the itemisation team actualy know about the effect of weapon speed?

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Old 07/20/09, 5:45 PM   #973
Spencicle
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Earthen Ring
What makes the Leg off-set piece better for mutilate than the Chest off-set piece for Combat?

If ArP is substantially less valuable for Mutilate wouldn't it be switched? Or would those legs make you go over the ArP cap if Mjolnir proc'd?

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Old 07/20/09, 6:44 PM   #974
chalon
Founder of the Chalonverse
 
Chalon
Night Elf Rogue
 
No WoW Account
The reason you don't want to swap out the chest for Mutilate is the Expertise on the T8 piece is far more valuable for Mutilate than it is for Combat. Thus it just works out that the legs are a better offset piece than the chest. However, there are also some configurations where the shoulders actually end up being a better offset piece, so your choice comes down to the legs or the shoulders realistically.

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Old 07/21/09, 9:57 AM   #975
Onodrim
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Aggramar (EU)
Originally Posted by Yurichi View Post
is it better to chose agi for the lower tier gear as naxx and goes towards ArP in uld25~ etc?
At Naxx level, Attack Power was considered the way to gem, while Ulduar progress, especially the introduction of the T8 4pc set bonus, tipped the scale in favour of Agility and eventually ArPen. Recent findings about gemming BIS gear when combat specced can be found in this post, made by Aldriana.

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