The on use / proc values for trinkets is probably just wrong.

Edit: Using the ep values itself, looks to be AP = 1, arp = 1, that should only really come up to around 196.5 on that list. Not that it's perfectly correct either. Use spreadsheets.

Using Vulajin's latest spreadsheet, I'm actually seeing Hailstorm about 25 DPS greater then Webbed Death with a 7/51/13 build (5 points in CQC, 4 in Sword Spec). Close enough, and there are obvious benefits in sticking with Webbed Death, mainly having the floater points in Combat for Endurance, imp kick, or whatever you choose. On the flip side, less competition for Hailstorm if it drops probably makes it the easier choice.

In regards to the 2 piece T6 bonus, I've kept my bracers and belt for now. Upgrading either of those items alone to best in slot 25 man gear results in a DPS loss according to what I'm seeing with the spreadsheet. Replacing both pieces however does result in a DPS upgrade. I currently have a Stalk-Skin belt banked waiting for the Sinner's Bindings to drop.

In the combat setup I currently have modeled for optimum DPS (5174.88 DPS) I have the Chestguard of the Recluse as my offset piece. As others have mentioned though, Expertise is probably the stat most will work around to attain max DPS since it is fairly easy to cap.

I've been using a 4-5s/5r cycle with the goal of keep Rupture up 100% of the time (and not overwriting it). If I get some lucky procs I occasionally have to Sinister Strike once or twice before rupturing to avoid overwriting (or getting an error message) to avoid capping energy. Generally speaking though, Rupture is ticking down to zero about the time I'm ready to reapply.

Something is definitely broken with their calculations for that trinket. It looks like they're just calculating it as a passive +290 armor pen.

Hey everyone, i finally finished my darkmoon decks, and am planning on testing the Undeath deck personally to discover the ICD (Internal Cooldown).

Problem is, I don't know exactly how to go about this.

Is there a way to track the procs specifically through recount, or will I need to use another add-on?

Proc testing best practices:
1. Equip only a single weapon in the main hand, no weapon in the OH.
2. Remove any items which proc haste (eg., no Meteorite Whetstone, no DST)
3. Note the weapon speed and the amount of haste rating which you'll be using for the test.
4. Turn on combat logging (/combatlog)
5. Record auto-attack only combat on a target dummy, and post the log

Recount stats are useful as well, just to see a raw count number, but won't help see the ICD.

I know with combat sword your OH has to be a sword based on procs.

If going CQC spec, I realize that based on the available items fist/dagger is best. My question however is, is there any specific reason for your OH to be a dagger? If there were a better OH fist would it be fist/fist?

For some of us that are not as knowledgeable and not in top end raiding it's sometime hard to tell what we should be doing along the way to those best in game items, so thank you very much for your help.

Didn't really know in what thread to post in, but I guess it goes best in here.

Just wanted to confirm that the internal cd of Darkmoon card: Greatness is indeed 45sec like we all predicted.
So it is indeed currently the best trinket in the game.

I only timed it with the in-game stopwatch, too tired to provide evidence nor do proper testing at the moment so my word will have to do. =)

How would one go about calculating the EP value of the Darkmoon Card given its internal cooldown and procrate? I want to be able to figure these things for myself without having to try and reference a table every time I want to see which trinkets fall where in comparison to one another.

It has a 45 second cooldown and a very high proc rate (wowhead says 35%). Hence, it will proc every 47 seconds or so, meaning the buff will be up 15 seconds out of every 47, or about 32% of the time. Hence, the benefit of the proc is about .32 * 300 agi = 96 agi, which when added to the passive benefit (90 agi), gives a total benefit of 186 agi, whereupon, with the EP values available in this and other threads, should easily allow computation of the value of the trinket.

How much would people say this trinket is actually worth though? I know it is currently the best trinket in the game(Darkmoon Card:Greatness). But with Naxx being as big of a joke as it is, is it really worth spending thousands of gold to get a trinket that could possibly be replaced within the next instance?

I've got some pretty bad news about the Darkmoon Card: Death trinket, folks...

It's Internal Cooldown is 45 seconds.

I just went off testing it and started marking down the proc times and the amount of time passed between procs, and it was never less than 45 seconds between each proc.

.....I wish i had AH'd this deck, now.

What Aldriana has written above is correct. Picked up my Greatness card this morning and did some brief testing during lunch. No haste procs on my equipment.

Logs zipped: Free File Hosting Made Simple - MediaFire

1st Fast weapon (1.6) vs L60 training dummy - 20 minutes sample
2nd Slow weapon (2.6) vs L60 training dummy - 20 minutes sample
3rd Both weapons vs boss training dummy snd/rupt/evi/ks/ar/bf etc - 10 minutes sample

Logs were grepped for SPELL_AURA_APPLIED and Greatness.

MH Speed: 1.60 [Widow's Fury]
Haste: 444
Attack Speed: 1.41
Log: mh16haste444attackspeed141.txt

mm:ss.ms	Interval
57:55.06	00:00:00
58:40.50	00:45.44
59:33.86	00:53.36
00:20.47	00:46.61
01:07.11	00:46.64
01:53.55	00:46.44
02:44.20	00:50.66
03:36.81	00:52.61
04:24.63	00:47.81
05:15.22	00:50.59
06:00.38	00:45.16
06:47.55	00:47.17
07:33.88	00:46.33
08:20.72	00:46.84
09:07.36	00:46.64
09:53.94	00:46.58
10:43.36	00:49.42
11:28.44	00:45.08
12:17.84	00:49.41
13:07.27	00:49.42
13:53.58	00:46.31
14:40.36	00:46.78
15:27.05	00:46.69
16:13.63	00:46.58
16:59.86	00:46.23
17:48.05	00:48.19
18:35.88	00:47.83
19:29.44	00:53.56

MH Speed: 2.60 [Torment of the Banished]
Haste: 296
Attack Speed: 2.39
Log: mh26haste296attackspeed239.txt

mm:ss.ms	Interval
00:54.66	00:00.00
01:40.52	00:45.86
02:47.64	01:07.12
03:43.09	00:55.45
04:45.72	01:02.62
05:38.72	00:53.00
06:46.30	01:07.58
07:31.61	00:45.31
08:17.41	00:45.80
09:10.59	00:53.19
10:03.50	00:52.91
10:51.70	00:48.20
11:42.30	00:50.59
12:32.92	00:50.62
13:35.39	01:02.47
14:33.47	00:58.08
15:21.67	00:48.20
16:12.34	00:50.67
17:02.52	00:50.17
17:51.19	00:48.67
18:36.67	00:45.48
19:29.69	00:53.02

Both Weapons Attacking as you would a boss sans wf totem and raid buffs
MH Attack Speed with snd: 1.82
OH Attack Speed with snd: 1.12
Haste: 321
Log: mh26oh16haste321attackspeedwithsndmh182oh112.txt

mm:ss.ms	Interval
41:20	00:00.00
42:05	00:45.38
42:54	00:48.62
43:40	00:46.56
44:26	00:46.20
45:12	00:45.34
46:00	00:48.20
46:49	00:49.55
47:35	00:45.27
48:21	00:45.81
49:06	00:45.38
49:52	00:45.78
50:37	00:45.39
51:24	00:46.97
52:11	00:46.58
52:56	00:45.78
53:42	00:45.80
54:28	00:46.25

If anyone needs more testing done feel free to ask.

I sold a nobles deck for 10k gold in 30 minutes. Having said this, I spent around 20k to get 2 decks!

It's really hard getting the nobles deck. In addition to the fact that no one wants to buy the other decks.

I've leveled inscription just to try and get the nobles deck. The chance you actually get a nobles card is utterly ridiculous. I've managed to pull a few off the AH really cheap but these darkmoon cards are just insane on the wallet.

Also, I keep seeing people mentioning that SR is going to be the best OH and barely beat out WDx2 but no matter what I do in Vul's current spreadsheet it always show WDx2 as being better by about 5-10 dps depending on the other gear.

The current gear setup I am going to shoot for is along the lines of:
t7.25 helm, shoulders, gloves, pants
Icy Blast amulet
Drape of the Deadly Foe
Stalk-Skin belt
chestguard of the recluse
footwraps of vile deceit
thrusting bands
WDx2 or WD MH, SR OH
Spinning Fate(thrown)
Fury of the Five Flights/Mirror of Truth(will use darkmoon over the fury trinket probably)
surge needle ring/strong-handed ring

Currently have the belt and one WD so far, hoping for some more rogue love from naxx. Just me, or does anyone else want to cry when they see more leather spell damage gear?

So with the inclusion of the Mutilate 2x OH proc chance, you actually want to put [Sinister Revenge] in the MH w/ Deadly Poison, and [Webbed Death] in the OH w/ Instant Poison. With my current gear, using that setup is a ~20 DPS gain over using 2x [Webbed Death].

So in the latest version of the spreadsheet, [Mirror of Truth] seems to drop down below [Grim Toll] (8dps) and even [Bandit's Insignia] (1dps) for me (7/51/13). Gap with [Fury of the Five Flights] increased (20dps). So assuming there was no bugs, this is probably due to the new higher armor value.

Anyone else get the similar results? And if so, guess this means [Mirror of Truth] is no longer the clear #3 for combat specs? Did it take a hit in the mutilate build too?

I've found, with limited testing so far, that [Fury of the Five Flights] and [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] are the two best trinkets for both combat and mutilate builds.

Yeah, I noticed this as well. It may very well be that Fury is better. The rough EP values are:

Fury = 320

Mirror (Mutilate) = 84 * 1.6 + ~190 = 326
Mirror (Combat) = 84 * 1.5 + ~190 = 316

However, 19% uptime may be a little bit generous. You might be more likely to see a 18% uptime, which would bring it lower in both cases. But as you can see, it's actually likely pretty close.

One other factor to consider is if you're really observant, you can take advantage of the MoT proc, and the fact that it will likely sync with Greatness, and for instance get a Rupture off that would be much higher than usual. That's one thing the spreadsheet wouldn't really factor in AFAIK. It wouldn't be surprising that in an "averaging out" scenario, the Fury ends up slightly ahead.

So, the thing to be very very careful about when comparing Mirror and Fury is that the Fury estimate is an *upper* bound, while the Mirror estimate is a *lower* bound.

Let me elaborate on that a bit. In an endless fight, with no edge effects, Fury gives exactly 320 AP, and Mirror gives average case 18% uptime - or whatever. Fine. However, in practice, fights aren't endless. Let us consider how these trinkets fair in, say, a 3 minute fight (which is a relevant length to optimize for right now, as it's the duration you need to make to get the Patchwerk achievement).

So, for *most* of the fight, Fury give 320 AP; however, for the first 20 attacks, it gives less - ranging from 0 to 304 AP. Now, a Mutilate rogue with full raid buffs attacks something like 2.5 times per second, so it takes perhaps 8 seconds to stack up - in practice, a bit more, since you won't have SnD up for the first couple of seconds. But lets use the 8 second number. Now, for these 8 seconds, the buff is stacking up, so we get, effectively, half the benefit of the trinket during this time. Thus, the "uptime" on Fury is, average-case, only about 97%, hence it's benefit is more like 309 AP. And this applies with fights of any length - no matter how long your fight is, the uptime on the trinket will always be less than 320 AP.

On the other hand, consider Mirror. It's going to proc for the first time a couple seconds into the fight; spend 50 seconds cooling down, proc again, and so forth. So the 18% (or whatever) number is achieved if and only if the fight ends just as it's coming off cooldown. Much more often, the fight will end during a proc, or while it's halfway through cooling down, or basically, at any other time during the fight. Which, in practice, means the effective uptime is higher in almost all cases. For instance, in our 3 min fight, we very likely get 4 full procs in 3 minutes - at worst, maybe 3 and a half, with the fight ending partway through the 4th. So if we get, say, 3.6 uptime periods, the trinket uptime is 20% rather than 18%. Hence, the practical value of the buff is 200 AP; hence, even for combat, this trinket has an effective value of 84 * 1.5 + 200 = 326 AP in this example.

Hence, in practice, FotFF will always underperform the 320 AP estimate, and Mirror will always overperform the 316 (or whatever) AP estimate for it. Hence, only on the longest fights (where both estimates are most accurate) will the distinction be relevant. In particular, on short or interrupted fights - like trash, or Maexxna if you get webbed, or Heigan while dancing, or... well, you get the idea - Fury falls far behind Mirror. So my personal recommendation would be DMC:G and Mirror for all specs, reserving FotFF only for the longest and most uninterrupted fights.

It bears noting that the Mirror is more vulnerable to RNG, though. On extended time-on-target fights, I'm seeing more of a tendency to hit 14.5-16% uptime. I have a few instances as high as 17.7% but I have never hit 18% uptime on Reflection of Truth. RNG in short fights is pretty significant.

The choice between the Mirror and FotFF is probably best determined by the player's ability to really capitalize on the Mirror. If the player has a good mental inventory on ICD's and knows to get his relevant cooldowns up during Heroism and when Reflection of Truth procs, then he's better served in any length fight with the Mirror. If the player finds this is too much to keep track of, FotFF will allow that player to simply hit his cooldowns when Heroism goes up because he can be sure he's enjoying the full benefit of his trinket.

It seems like the Mirror and Greatness fairly consistently proc "together" since they have the same ICD and similar proc chances, I've had a lot of luck energy dumping while both are active. I'd agree with the suggestion that using the FoFF "optimal" value always is an unfair comparison - there seem to be plenty of cases in Naxx where the 10s FoFF buff could drop (Grobbulus debuff, Sapphiron, Locust Swarm, etc) and it's not going to perform at the modeled value.