shegil

You can try to maximize the uptime of FotFF by using a throwing weapon, for example on Heigan I always stop in between the eruptions and throw once just to keep the stack going. Same works for Malygos and Grobbulus if you're running away from the boss. You can also throw on the banshees at Kel'Thuzad add phase. Use your imagination and you can get a better uptime, because as Aldriana says; it's a big deal =).

 

Ghost

This is certainly true, but isn't it also true that proc trinkets won't always perform at their modeled value either. Your trinket might proc right before getting web wrapped, or right before Heigan teleports, or right before Saph goes into air phase and so forth.

 

• sedrikk

And if you have a proc trinket, doing this can actually lower the uptime on that trinket. If you cause DCG or MoT to proc from that one throw, chances are that proc is going to be wasted. Plus the trinket will still be on cooldown when actual dps time resumes. So be careful when doing this that it is not causing more harm than good based on your trinkets.

 

Kytrarewn

With my expected "Couple months of farming Naxx25/Malygos/Sartharion" gearset, I find that Collar of Dissolution from Naxx10 is at least equivalent to, and in some cases better than, Fool's Trial or Icy Blast Amulet.

Not much, not by a huge degree (one or two DPS), but it bears mentioning that if you have the Dissolution collar, it might not want to be the first piece you upgrade.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.

 

Murr

I saw this with Gem of Imprisoned Vassals (from KT 10 man), but not Collar of Dissolution (Anub'Rekhan).

 

• Feist-Mok

You beat me to it. The KT 10 neck was, in my spreadsheeting, equivalent to everything other than the EoE quest neck, which, in spite of having armor pen, comes out significantly ahead for me as any non-mutilate spec, and far enough ahead to be worth noticing for mutilate too.

The Anub'rekhan necks value is however, inflated in value for mutilate specs if you select the non-expertise option for enough other gear slots (Sinners over Thrusting on wrists, Dawnwalkers over Vile Deceit on feet, etc. etc. ad nauseum)

 

Kytrarewn

Even with pretty decent expertise options (Thrusting, Vile Deceit, Frosted Adroit, Stalk-Skin), but non-expertise, but perhaps realistic, rings (Have sealing ring of grobbulus at present (only a 16DPS upgrade to strong-handed, 20DPS is probably enough to be "must upgrade soon"), figure for a second ring I'm probably going to want surge needle) leading to a total of 4.50% expertise, the Collar of Dissolution is within 5 DPS of the other options. That's a smaller upgrade than most of the other "X and Y are pretty close" options listed by Chalon in the initial post.

If DKP were still around, it'd be one of the last pieces I upgraded from my current set.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.

 

Rambaral

You might want to hold off spending gold on those Nobles cards. While very little information is known as of yet, a possible new trinket has surfaced on the PTR:

Strength of the Titans -- Chance on hit to increase your attack power by 1000 for 10 secs.

This could be the name of the effect, the name of the trinket, or possibly some buff from something entirely unrelated. it's still unknown, but if you're selling your worldly possessions for the Nobles deck, you may be in for a shock.

 

• Aldriana

Well, it's worth noting that even if they do add a new trinket that's better than Greatness - which is by no means certain, as a) we don't know anything else about the trinket - proc rate, other stats, etc., and b) based on the name that could easily be for an item not coming out till Ulduar - Greatness would still be the 2nd best trinket and not particularly any less worthwhile.

 

Murr

Sounds like something from Ulduar that snuck into the spell DB to me.

 

• Feist-Mok

This buff is identical to the [Mirror of Truth]. Unless the proc mechanics are substantially different (unlikely - the only thing that would really yield a significant uptime increase from the mirror is a shorter ICD), this is unlikely to mean anything.

More likely than not there will soon be a new dropped alternative to the mirror that may have better (or worse!) passive stats, or perhaps this is simply a new name for the mirror's proc buff or a new encounter specific buff of some sort.

 

saedo

It's slightly different. One is chance on crit, the other is chance on hit. But without knowing proc rates or internal CDs it's hard to speculate further.

 

• Feist-Mok

Given the frequency of attacks by most rogues, and typical raidbuffed critrates in T7 level gear, this distinction is pretty functionally irrelevant - cooldown duration is generally the only realistic limiter on uptime for the mirror - changing it to Chance on Hit wouldn't improve it's value that much - though it certainly introduces a certain amount of gearscaling to the Mirror's value, and reduces it's usefulness as a threat trinket for tanks. Which was probably the intention.

 

• Feist-Mok

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ewtrinkets.jpg

There's the trinket.

Basically it's the PVP version of the Mirror of Truth, with Resillience instead of Crit rating, and chance on hit instead of chance on crit, presumably to cope w/ resil's crit reduction.

Hardly likely to be worthwhile.

 

• Neto-

So, I spent some time fiddling with the spreadsheet (version 0.4.2) today and figured out the very best setup before Ulduar for Mutilate, for a JC/LW undead rogue, with pretty much all buffs, if anyone is interested.

Weapons: [Webbed Death] mainhand, [Webbed Death] offhand.
Ranged: [Envoy of Mortality]
Helm: [Valorous Bonescythe Helmet] Gems: [Relentless Earthsiege Diamond], [Delicate Dragon's Eye]
Neck: [Favor of the Dragon Queen] Gems: [Delicate Dragon's Eye]
Shoulder: [Valorous Bonescythe Pauldrons] Gems: [Delicate Scarlet Ruby]
Cloak: [Drape of the Deadly Foe]
Chest: [Chestguard of the Recluse] Gems: [Precise Scarlet Ruby]
Wrist: [Thrusting Bands]
Gloves: [Valorous Bonescythe Gauntlets] Gems: [Deadly Monarch Topaz]
Waist: [Stalk-Skin Belt] Gems: [Delicate Scarlet Ruby]
Legs: [Valorous Bonescythe Legplates] Gems: [Delicate Dragon's Eye], [Deadly Monarch Topaz]
Boots: [Footwraps of Vile Deceit] Gems: [Deadly Monarch Topaz]
Rings: [Surge Needle Ring] and [Ring of Invincibility]
Trinkets: [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] and [Fury of the Five Flights]

Things that might be interesting: 4-piece T7 blows any other gear combination out of the water. All the items suggested on the OP aren't too far off from the items I have listed here, but some of them are substantially behind, such as the [Dawnwalkers] and the [Belt of the Tortured]. Using one Expertise gem is actually better than one Attack Power gem for this setup, but using more than one Expertise gem or a [Precise Dragon's Eye] isn't worth it (first one would put you over the cap, and the second probably has to do with expertise rating rounding). The [Mirror of Truth] is behind [Fury of the Five Flights], but as Aldriana mentioned earlier, it's only better in a theoretical fight, as in, a fight that isn't interrupted. As most rogues will have both anyway, I recommend switching accordingly (Fury for stationary fights, Mirror for most interrupted fights).

 

ohnoes

The only thing I had different from that setup you currently put together was using Wicked Monarch Topaz in the yellow slots and switching a Bright Dragon's Eye into Favor of the Dragon Queen.

 

• Neto-

Duh, I knew I was missing something. Thanks for the correction, edited the post.

 

• Aldriana

I think the spreadsheet might be slightly underestimating the value of a fast MH in terms of DP restacking for Envenom, though admittedly I haven't looked at how it's accounting for that in detail; in the calculations I've done, a 2nd Webbed Death edges out Sinister Revenge by ~5 DPS. Not a big deal, and I imagine in practice you won't notice the difference between them, but it is something to keep in mind.

The other thing I'd note is that using one Expertise gem and either Sinner's Bindings or Dawnwalkers improves your position in relative to the Expertise breakpoints slightly and wastes less Expertise Rating. Again, don't know how much it matters but it's something to consider.

Also, I slightly prefer Agi to AP for red gems; the DPS is extremely close, and the extra dodge can't possibly hurt. It's admittedly somewhat of a matter of personal preference, but I believe it to be worth it.

As an interesting side note to the notion of Agi gems: I find that for some gear combinations Haste actually catches up to or surpasses Crit in terms of yellow stats, such that Deft gems become the option of choice, rather than Deadly (which, by the previous point, I prefer to Wicked).

 

inph

[Envoy of Mortality] Ranged slot from Kel'Thuzad heroic is a straight stat upgrade to the 10 man listed ranged you have above.

 

Kukulkan

I been wondering the above, in terms of expertise being a stat that isnt converted fully or at least on the display like crit or hit. Does it take it full value or does it take the int part of the the exp rating div by 8?

Im asking this as some items might be larger value percieved like
Footwraps of Vile Deceit = 30 exp rating = 3 expertise (losing 0.66)
Thrusting Bands = 38exp rating = 4 expertise (losing 0.64)

Would u gem aslo agil over ap for combat build?

 

FlorenceSeed

Have you in mind that 30-33 % of your dps isn't improve by the crit of the Agi ? (in muti spec)

Explain your opinion, I'm very interested in.

 

• Aldriana

Historically it has truncated. It might be worth testing to see if that's still the case; the easiest way would be to equip Expertise to get just below the 26 expertise required to reach the dodge cap, and then hit a target dummy for a while to see if your dodge rate is all but nonexistent, or if it's still pretty close to .25%.

Honestly, I haven't paid much attention to combat builds; I've only really had time to analyze one spec, and I'm currently Mutilate, I've been focusing on that.

Well, because in every estimate I've ever seen of EP values, Agi scores 1.9 EP or better; the fact that it buffs your DPS unequally is not terribly relevant. Here's the basic logic: lets say we replace 80 EP with 40 AP, we gain 1% dodge and lose (at most) 4 EP of DPS. 4 EP is perhaps 2.5 DPS, out of the 5000 or so you'll do in a Patchwerk situation. Hence, we're looking at perhaps a .05% reduction in your DPS. So, lets put that in perspective. Over the course of a Naxx25 clear, one does at most, say, 20 million damage. In reality probably less - my last few clears have been more in the 16-17 million range, but lets say 20. .05% of 20 million is 10000, or about 2 seconds of DPS.

So, if that 1% dodge, on average, keeps you alive for 2 seconds in an entire Naxx clear - under the worse possible assumptions for the DPS value of agility - you come out ahead. And note that a typical death costs you more than that - on average you spend at least 30 seconds on the ground, plus some extra time getting healed up, you may head in without buffs, etc. So what it really comes down to is: if you believe 1% dodge might save your life at any time between now and when Ulduar comes out, you're quite possibly better off gemming agility.

And, in practice, many estimates show the value of agility as closer to 2 EP than 1.9. Which increases the timeline for "how often 1% dodge needs to save your life to make agility worthwhile" to something like "the entirety of this expansion". So, personally, I think it's a worthwhile tradeoff.

 

shegil

I got around to test it now, and this is what I came up with.

I equipped 213 expertise rating, which is 6.25% less dodge/parry, or 25 expertise but here's the real numbers: 213/8.1975 = 25.98 expertise. 25.98*0.25 = 6.496% less dodge/parry.

Then I proceeded to hit a boss dummy 5500 times with two poinards, and during that time I had 0 dodges.

Expertise rating do decrease the chance of getting dodged attacks even though the character sheet says otherwise, or the cap is very close to 6.25% dodge.

EDIT: I proceeded to unequipp 6 expertise rating, leaving me at 207 expertise rating or 6.313% less dodge/parry, and performed 400 attacks before I got one dodge.

 

• Neto-

So, given Aldriana's new Mutilate optimal gear spreadsheet, the results were a little bit different than the list that I previously posted.

However, if you change all the AP gems to Agility, the gearset I listed is only a fraction of DPS behind, and the only reason it isn't better is because of expertise rounding (0.4 wasted expertise with a Precise Scarlet Ruby, 0.8 with Precise Dragon's Eye, and the Accurate gems are just bad in general post-poison cap; whereas Aldriana's set with Sinner's Bindings only wastes 0.1 expertise). So it's safe to say that the only questionable choices are Strong-Handed Ring (0.3 DPS behind Invincibility on Aldriana's spreadsheet) and the Thrusting Bands (0.6 DPS behind Sinner's on Aldriana's spreadsheet); as you can see, the differences are super small and I'd treat it as "whatever comes first". There's also a large difference between Webbed Death mainhand and Sinister Revenge, I would give preference to Webbed Death.

With that said, there's a non-insignificant difference between Agility gems and Attack Power gems on both spreadsheets (Agility is better on Aldriana's, Attack Power on Vulajin's, small amount of DPS obviously - but it adds up), and as stated by Aldriana, the offsets are fairly minimal for gemming Agility and it's ultimately up to you.

 

• Vulajin

Your first test was plenty. Assume that the dodge rate is known to be 6.50%.

Let our null hypothesis be that expertise rating is converted to expertise and then truncated before being converted into a reduction to your opponent's chance to dodge. Thus, your expertise is exactly 25, and your chance to be dodged therefore 0.25%. Over 5500 attacks, the probability of experiencing 0 dodges is 0.00010%. Thus, we can reject the null hypothesis with over 99.9% certainty.

(edit) Actually, it's not necessarily possible to say that for sure. If we go back with the null hypothesis, since both combinations of expertise rating yield exactly 25 expertise, if the dodge rate were close enough to 6.25%, then experiencing one dodge in 5900 attacks is plausible.

If we do assume that expertise truncates, then our 99% confidence interval for the actual dodge rate, based on your test, is 6.22%-6.31%.