The problem isn't that we wont be getting as much DPS through weapon swapping, it's that rogues will have to look for very specific upgrades and if they don't drop they fall far behind other classes which they are already doing on the PTR. We'll literally only be looking for BiS items which is what Blizzard doesn't want, yet they've forced it on us.

Who knows, maybe we'll be able to attack bosses from the front =/

I don't see the problem with the lack of hit.
There's a several hit items already, and we still haven't seen a offset helm.
It's more of a issue for mutilate, since arp isn't an ideal stat, but Gloves of the Silver Assassin are a good example that good stat spread is more relevant than the stats themselves.

We've only seen loot from 6 of the 14(?) bosses in Icecrown, and I doubt we even have full loot tables for the bosses we have seen. I think it's a tad bit early to be worried about a lack of anything on gear.

I wouldn't worry that much about hitrating.

There have already been found several nonsetitems with hitrating, like Wodins Lucky Necklace or Band of the Bone Colossus. A sword with hitrating drops (Bloodvenom Blade and the set shoulders now also have hitrating (Sanctified Shadowblade Pauldrons). And these are just the items discovered off 6 or 7 of 13 bosses.

I am sure there will be enough ways to gain hitrating up to the poison hitcap without socketing or even enchanting hitrating in any major way.

Set shoulders providing hit gives mutilate more breathing room as to which pieces to purchase.

2pc from Shoulder+Gloves, Offset expertise chest, offset hit/crit legs, hopefully there's a offset non-arp helmet somewhere in there.

The World of Warcraft Armory
There is your offset helm.

There are a ton of items on the armory now.

Completely agree. It would not be hard for them to make proc items that perform on par with or ahead of typical stat items yet for some reason they keep undertuning them. I suspect that part of their reasoning is that they do not wish to make these weapons overpowered in PvP, but the end result is often an item that ends up getting disenchanted.

Honestly, I think the problem is exactly that it's harder than you might think to make proc items that are legitimately good. Historically, proc items have *completely* sucked. In 3.3, we're seeing some new proc items that, while they may not be as good as stat items, are at least in the same ballpark. It's easy to underestimate just how strong a proc needs to be in order to be viable.

For instance: late ICC hard weapons gain on the order of 500 DPS from stats. Say we want to put a damage proc on a weapon instead of those stats. Assume further that we want it to be a relatively low proc rate - say it procs once every 20 seconds on average. How much damage would the proc need to do? Well, 500 DPS * 20 seconds = 10000 damage. And you can sorta see why they might be a bit worried about putting a proc on an item that results in 10k bursts. And yeah, they could change it to be more like 2k damage every 4 seconds, but is that really any better in terms of PvP?

Realistically, I think the problem comes down to this: in raids, you run with raid buffs, that double or more your damage output. Thus, any proc that simply adds a fixed amount of damage needs to add a *lot* of damage to be viable in PvE in order to make up for all the damage the stats would be doing; but then if you run it in 5mans or PvP or other such situations where you don't have ridiculous damage buffs, it seems way overpowered.

Thus, in order to make proc items actually work, it is necessary to implement procs that actually scale with your gear and buffs. Straight damage procs - no matter where you get them - are never going to balanced across the full spectrum of rogue DPS. And this is exactly what we're seeing - the straight damage procs we say on Vis'kag and Deathbringer and Gutgore Ripper and whatnot were tuned such that they weren't overpowered in unbuffed situations... so they completely suck in buffed situations. But the newer procs we're seeing - Heartpierce and Black Bruise - are explicitly set up in ways that means they scale with your other stats, either by doing a percentage of your weapon damage (Black Bruise) or allowing you to make more attacks with those weapons (Heartpierce). As a result, while they're still a bit underpowered, they're a whole lot closer. Similarly: the old Black Magic sucked (even for casters) because it was just a damage proc. Now that it's a stat proc, it's a lot more appealing. Similarly, this is why Icebreaker sucks but Mongoose is still good.

The challenge, of course, is coming up with fun and interesting procs that actually scale well in this way. It doesn't really solve stat inflation if every proc is just "adds a bajillion to stat X". And there's only so many fun and interesting mechanics that one can add that do other things, and it's not always obvious how to balance them. Hence: ICC shows clear progress on this front - they've clearly figured out the problem, and are experimenting with solutions. The fact that they didn't get it totally right the first time through is... not really that surprising, all things considered.

Also note that there's an implicit comparison between statted and unstatted items here. This is of course a problem if both exists. But there's nothing that says they need to keep having statted items - if they have only proc items, even if they're weaker than the statted items would have been... it doesn't really matter. Our DPS will be balanced so as to be in the right place with whatever itemization is available, so if only proc items are available our talents and whatever will simply be balanced so our overall damage comes out in the right place. Which is not to say that this is an option they will choose... but it is an option.

I don't post often, but considering Aldriana is almost certainly right, it seems like a damage proc that scales with ilvl similar to the way the damage of vehicles does would make sense. I have no idea how practical that is or how difficult to implement.

But that wouldn't solve the unbuffed vs. buffed issue that Aldriana points out above. In a raid environment, your average ilvl doesn't change.

Right - good examples are things like Tiny Abomination in a Jar (tho we don't know the exact proc mechanics of it) - "50% weapon damage" is a scaling factor that will buff really well, and it's possible that acquisition of motes will also scale with things like haste (or hit insofar as hitting is likely required to get a mote), also the effect on Shadowmourne.

I've noticed Equipping Deathbringer's Will with my current gear lowers Armor Penetration EP significantly (from 2.1 to <2) and the spreadsheet starts to suggest Agi gems , even if the Crip Cap has been already reached ( not considering Expertise Gems).

I guess the spreadsheet calculates a sort of softcap based on the possible ArPen trinket's proc , which I decided to ignore for now. Around a value of 1100 Arpen becomes again the best stat and , if the trinket is used to reach the hardcap ( 155 passive Arpen can help much for this ) , the Arpen proc becomes always more useless the more we get close to it.

My question is : should we use this trinket and hope for crit/AP procs ? Considering the ICD and the lenght of the buff (around 2 minutes in total) , that may be an hazard , considering we can reach a good level of Arpen also without it and we have a good trinket available at the badge vendor. Vice-versa , if we equip it and set to the softcap to draw advantage from each proc , ArPen EP stays lower and we must gem and gear haste/AP/hit ( raising the portion of our totale damage made by poisons ).

My concern is that both options , considering the alternatives, may not be convenient for Combat Rogues : the first one basically means we must be lucky to take full advantage of the trinket and pay attention to the possible Crit Capping , the second one will force us not to gear and gem for Arpen ( which is our strong point ).

I'd like to hear more opinions about this trinket as I have currently equipped Death's Verdict and I dont think i will take DBW if i buy HWT with my badges.

DBW from the longterm raiddps upgrade perspective is a waste on Rogues, since the ArP would be undesirable in near-BiS gear, since as Combat Hardcapping ArP is the way to go.

I'd say it's better served in the hands of Warriors, Ret Paladins and Death Knights and thus advise you to pass on it.

However should Blizzard change the trinket to proc haste instead of ArP for Mutilate, DBW could become an alternative to WFS.

I guess you mean Arpen proc is underisable in near-BiS gear , 155 passive Arpen is quite nice (and needed?) to reach the hardcap.

My post was referred to combat spec , I didn't consider DBW a trinket recommended to Assassination rogues. Warrios would have the same issue as Combat rogues with Arpen , same applies to Red Paladins gemmed for it , I'm failing to see why they should have the precedence over rogues.

Even if the 155 ArPen is needed to reach the hard cap, 1/3 of the trinket procs become useless and due to RNG, you could easily not get any benefit from the procs at all if the RNG gods hate you

Upon closer look at the trinket, it seems that the trinket is more talk then it is action, which is a shame since i love running around as a Vrykul

Mostly because 600 strength is worth arguably more to a Warrior than 600 agility to a rogue.

Same reason why I'm adverse to handing hcDV's to Rogues.

Obviously depending on your guilds looting policies, you might be able to snatch one up, since it is the "best" trinket for Combat.

As far as i've been able to tell in the spreadsheet is that Herkuml and Deathbringers are the BiS trinkets.

So far the highest dps i've been able to pull together in the current sheet is 13462.5 (with LW/Ench)

The problem with DBW is that it has:
1/3 800 arpen softcap and in what I find to be BiS at 1265 passive arpen, you're capping out and wasting 465 rating
1/3 13% crit gain(i believe) which in most peoples gear lvl, pushes well beyond the cap.
1/3 1200 AP which is never wasted.

Its strengths however which shouldn't be overlooked is its 155 passive arpen. This partially helps to make up for any waste you may have. Also the fact that you're proc'd for 30 seconds capped on crit, arpen, and a major AP boost.

This could possibly be why in the gear i've input, hit rating is so valuable.

I think its less about the proc and more about its passive stat.

Of course, someone else could have completely different data on the matter.


EDIT: Found a way to push to 13475.3 Puts passive arpen to 1322 which puts the arpen proc at a 522 rating waste.

If you were JC/BS you'd be at 13532.3 at passive arpen capped at 1404 and DW still comes out on top.

What limits are you placing on the gear you are using? If you're including heroic gear, the numbers you are quoting are quite low. Is that just assuming normal 25 man gear?

13532.3dps is low for combat?

No limits on the gear I've been using. Just whatever is currently in the latest spreadsheet, heroics included

Lets continue this in PMs

Do most mut rogues plan on using the gloves and shoulders for the 2 piece T10? Making completely sure before I spend my emblems I've got (already got the emblem trinket)

Actually I was wondering it myself from a different perspective; what if I went back to combat and I'm left with one or two sub par tier pieces? Aldriana's sheet shows legs as the highest dps increase for me by quite a bit.

Fooling with the spreadsheet and attempting a "BiS" list (which is mostly irrelevant right now but i'm bored) I found as long as you have access to the off-set helm or off-set chest, you will use the gloves and shoulders for the 2 piece.