WotLK Rogue Gear Discussion - Page 6

songster · 12/14/08, 4:44 AM

Originally Posted by Neto-

As most rogues will have both anyway, I recommend switching accordingly (Fury for stationary fights, Mirror for most interrupted fights)...

Can I just point out the stupidity of this little remark, and all others like it? Fury is a 10% drop on a week-long lockout. Even assuming you prioritise rogues for it (which is certainly not a given), and only have two rogues on your roster (very unlikely), it will still take an average of 20 weeks (that's FIVE MONTHS, folk), for "most rogues" to have it. It is currently the fifth raiding week since WoTLK released. That means that even if you're in a guild mad enough to have been able to start raiding 25-man within the first reset, there is still only a 41% chance of having a SINGLE Fury in your guild. The remarkably few people who have it are the lucky, privileged elite.

Yes, it's nice to put together these little wish lists of "wouldn't it be nice if" gear - but our theorycraft and discussion should centre much more around more reasonable expectations.

For example, my conclusion would be that given the extreme rarity of Fury, the fact that pretty much every physical DPSer will want it, and the fact that the badge alternative is equivalent in almost all circumstances, it's not even worth acknowledging its existence or wasting DKP on it if it does drop. Prioritise stuff that will give you a real upgrade.

• Aldriana · 12/14/08, 4:58 AM

Well, I think the point - which was perhaps poorly phrased - is that any rogue with a FotFF should also have a Mirror. Which is not to say that every rogue will have one, just that if the choice is at all meaningful to you, you have the option of trading between them on a fight-by-fight basis.

Personally, I file FotFF under "situational". There are certainly fights where I would use it - Patchwerk, Loatheb, and perhaps a few others - but for most things it just doesn't hold up. I certainly wouldn't take it over someone planning to use it (almost) all the time, but it's worth keeping in mind that *should* it happen to drop and no one happens to need, it may be worth grabbing - depending on your guild's loot system.

• Neto- · 12/14/08, 6:12 PM

Originally Posted by songster

Can I just point out the stupidity of this little remark, and all others like it? Fury is a 10% drop on a week-long lockout. Even assuming you prioritise rogues for it (which is certainly not a given), and only have two rogues on your roster (very unlikely), it will still take an average of 20 weeks (that's FIVE MONTHS, folk), for "most rogues" to have it. It is currently the fifth raiding week since WoTLK released. That means that even if you're in a guild mad enough to have been able to start raiding 25-man within the first reset, there is still only a 41% chance of having a SINGLE Fury in your guild. The remarkably few people who have it are the lucky, privileged elite.

What I meant (as already explained, but I'd like to make some other points clear) is that the first thing, or one of the things you will buy with badges, will be the Mirror of Truth, and every raiding rogue should have that. So, if you happen to get a Fury of the Five Flights, you can just switch between them to whatever suits the situation better. Sorry for the confusion, I thought it was clear enough.

The reason I made that list is just so I know which upgrades to look for, which are by far and away the best, and which to stay away from, and well, FotFF is rated as the #1 trinket by the spreadsheets, even though it isn't true for most situations. It isn't very likely that I will get an Envoy of Mortality (15% drop rate), or a Drape of the Deadly Foe (15% drop rate), or a Surge Needle Ring (6% drop rate) either, but they are best in slots and that's something to be considered.

ohnoes · 12/14/08, 8:01 PM

Originally Posted by Neto-

The reason I made that list is just so I know which upgrades to look for, which are by far and away the best, and which to stay away from, and well, FotFF is rated as the #1 trinket by the spreadsheets, even though it isn't true for most situations.

I fail to see how FotFF isn't best for most situations, most fights in Nax the buff will never fall, so if anything its the best trinket aside Darkmoon Card: Greatness for any physical DPS. The only fight that comes to my memory right now that it wouldn't be great for is Gothik and Horsemen. As for Heigan, you can just throw a weapon at him while dancing to keep the buff stacked.

For anyone who doesn't know about this trinket it procs off every single hit and can keep the stack up on movement fights with just throwing a weapon.

• Feist-Mok · 12/14/08, 8:08 PM

Originally Posted by ohnoes

I fail to see how FotFF isn't best for most situations, most fights in Nax the buff will never fall, so if anything its the best trinket aside Darkmoon Card: Greatness for any physical DPS. The only fight that comes to my memory right now that it wouldn't be great for is Gothik and Horsemen. As for Heigan, you can just throw a weapon at him while dancing to keep the buff stacked.

For anyone who doesn't know about this trinket it procs off every single hit and can keep the stack up on movement fights with just throwing a weapon.

It's been noted that tricks like a thrown attack to keep the buff stacked can often 'waste' procs from your other trinket slot, invalidating any value gained by doing so. Not true 100% of the time, and certainly if you watch your ICD's like a hawk, you might be able to play around it - but probably beyond any standard gearing recommendations.

ohnoes · 12/14/08, 8:23 PM

Originally Posted by Feist-Mok

It's been noted that tricks like a thrown attack to keep the buff stacked can often 'waste' procs from your other trinket slot, invalidating any value gained by doing so. Not true 100% of the time, and certainly if you watch your ICD's like a hawk, you might be able to play around it - but probably beyond any standard gearing recommendations.

I suppose so, but that is for one fight if you were to do that, whether its worth doing I'm not sure seeing as how it would depend on your second trinket, but even still, for most fights FotFF is extremely good and I don't see a reason to pass on it if you can get it because it will most likely be the same upgrade for you as it will on someone else.

Aeviana · 12/14/08, 8:24 PM

I've been looking over the off tier pieces and im stuck between the legs and the chest piece... then i thought for a second and noticed that there are actually massive upgrades between all of them. Is it worth it to drop the 4 piece entirely and use legs/chest/gloves(from sarth & malygos) and shoulders/helm for the 2pc?

Leto · 12/14/08, 8:36 PM

Originally Posted by Aeviana

I've been looking over the off tier pieces and im stuck between the legs and the chest piece... then i thought for a second and noticed that there are actually massive upgrades between all of them. Is it worth it to drop the 4 piece entirely and use legs/chest/gloves(from sarth & malygos) and shoulders/helm for the 2pc?

not likely, at least not according to any dps models currently available.

• Aldriana · 12/14/08, 8:59 PM

Originally Posted by ohnoes

I fail to see how FotFF isn't best for most situations, most fights in Nax the buff will never fall, so if anything its the best trinket aside Darkmoon Card: Greatness for any physical DPS. The only fight that comes to my memory right now that it wouldn't be great for is Gothik and Horsemen. As for Heigan, you can just throw a weapon at him while dancing to keep the buff stacked.

For anyone who doesn't know about this trinket it procs off every single hit and can keep the stack up on movement fights with just throwing a weapon.

It depends on the circumstances, of course; but my argument would be as follows. FotFF, even on fairly long fights, does suffer a nontrivial reduction relative to it's theoretical value due to stack time. As discussed here, even on a 3min fight the real value of FotFF is more like 309 AP rather than 320 AP; and according to my calculations, a 309 AP trinket would come in behind Mirror with average uptime - never mind the fact that Mirror will almost always overperform the average case. So while FotFF might be optimal for combat (though, for the reasons discussed, I'm not at all convinced), I would argue that it's pretty clearly not for Mutilate. I'd use it on Loatheb (due to crit-capping) and possibly Patchwerk, but really that's about it.

ohnoes · 12/15/08, 1:43 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

It depends on the circumstances, of course; but my argument would be as follows. FotFF, even on fairly long fights, does suffer a nontrivial reduction relative to it's theoretical value due to stack time. As discussed here, even on a 3min fight the real value of FotFF is more like 309 AP rather than 320 AP; and according to my calculations, a 309 AP trinket would come in behind Mirror with average uptime - never mind the fact that Mirror will almost always overperform the average case. So while FotFF might be optimal for combat (though, for the reasons discussed, I'm not at all convinced), I would argue that it's pretty clearly not for Mutilate. I'd use it on Loatheb (due to crit-capping) and possibly Patchwerk, but really that's about it.

Well, I suppose if your calculations are correct, that is a bit silly that a badge trinket is that good and no 25man trinket is better then it. How are your calculations that much different from Vulajins spreedsheet though?

• Aldriana · 12/15/08, 2:54 AM

1) They're not necessarily that much different - we come up with very similar EP weights for crit, which is the relevant factor. The point is that any spreadsheet models endless combat, and thus overestimates FotFF and underestimates Mirror. So, even though the spreadsheet might show more damage for FotFF, depening on your gear it may well be close enough that you will end up using Mirror in many if not most situations.

2) The differences between the spreadsheets are considerable; I think the major one causing differences (such as the Webbed Death/Sinister Revenge debate) is that it has a more extensive model of finisher rotations and poison restacking, and thus - in my opinion, anyway - more accurately reflects the damage gained by poison, envenom, and rupture. Of course, it may also contain mistakes, and I'm not going to claim that there's consensus that I'm absolutely right - I'm just saying that in the vast majority of circumstances there's a very strong case to be made for Mirror of Truth based on how it handles interrupted fights. You're welcome to hold a dissenting opinion, of course - that's why we have forums. I give my opinion and explain why, and you give your opinion and explain why, we argue about it for a while, and people can decide who they think is right

.

Hallagenic · 12/15/08, 3:20 AM

Originally Posted by chalon

Helm: [Valorous Bonescythe Helmet] is the best, though [Hood of the Exodus] is a suitable alternative.

.

I want to bring something up on helms that i feel is much better than the two previously listed on the thread and that is

[Cover of Silence], I feel the hit and overall stats are better than those of the other 2 listed. Am i wrong about this and if so why?

• Neto- · 12/15/08, 3:22 AM

Originally Posted by Hallagenic

I want to bring something up on helms that i feel is much better than the two previously listed on the thread and that is

[Cover of Silence], I feel the hit and overall stats are better than those of the other 2 listed. Am i wrong about this and if so why?

That helm does not have a metagem slot, meaning that it's absolutely awful.

xvvx01 · 12/15/08, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by Hallagenic

I want to bring something up on helms that i feel is much better than the two previously listed on the thread and that is

[Cover of Silence], I feel the hit and overall stats are better than those of the other 2 listed. Am i wrong about this and if so why?

To add-on to what Neto said, even Mask of the Watcher out of H-Oculus is better than that simply because of the Meta Gem.

The Meta Gem also gains value as your gear gets better because the 3% scales.

• Feist-Mok · 12/15/08, 1:39 PM

Originally Posted by xvvx01

To add-on to what Neto said, even Mask of the Watcher out of H-Oculus is better than that simply because of the Meta Gem.

The Meta Gem also gains value as your gear gets better because the 3% scales.

And to finish up in stating the obvious for those that might ask, because of this, if you are at the Expertise cap without the H-Oculus helm, and cannot drop expertise elsewhere to use it, there are no helm upgrades in Wrath outside of Naxxramas and Engineering, from your TBC epic helm w/ a meta socket.

Rambaral · 12/15/08, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by songster

Can I just point out the stupidity of this little remark, and all others like it? Fury is a 10% drop on a week-long lockout. Even assuming you prioritise rogues for it (which is certainly not a given), and only have two rogues on your roster (very unlikely), it will still take an average of 20 weeks (that's FIVE MONTHS, folk), for "most rogues" to have it. It is currently the fifth raiding week since WoTLK released. That means that even if you're in a guild mad enough to have been able to start raiding 25-man within the first reset, there is still only a 41% chance of having a SINGLE Fury in your guild. The remarkably few people who have it are the lucky, privileged elite.

Yes, it's nice to put together these little wish lists of "wouldn't it be nice if" gear - but our theorycraft and discussion should centre much more around more reasonable expectations.

For example, my conclusion would be that given the extreme rarity of Fury, the fact that pretty much every physical DPSer will want it, and the fact that the badge alternative is equivalent in almost all circumstances, it's not even worth acknowledging its existence or wasting DKP on it if it does drop. Prioritise stuff that will give you a real upgrade.

Throwing around the term stupidity on this forum (or any really) isn't constructive, or valid in this case. On our 2nd 25 man Sartharion run it dropped the only people that rolled on it were myself and the other rogue (DKP ftw!). Out guild isn't stupid and we had plenty of dps toons in the raid. Something you think would be see 20 rolls in chat got far less, mainly because they knew a Rogue should get the item first. It's not like people could'nt see the item link to know what it did. So your assumption that it's uber rare and sought after seems a bit out of perspective.

I would say that it is the new DST, but I got my DST the first time I ran Gruul, it then dropped again the next time for the other rogue. I'm either uncannily lucky or the drop rates are nowhere near what people go by.

Leto · 12/15/08, 2:13 PM

Originally Posted by Rambaral

Throwing around the term stupidity on this forum (or any really) isn't constructive, or valid in this case. On our 2nd 25 man Sartharion run it dropped the only people that rolled on it were myself and the other rogue (DKP ftw!). Out guild isn't stupid and we had plenty of dps toons in the raid. Something you think would be see 20 rolls in chat got far less, mainly because they knew a Rogue should get the item first. It's not like people could'nt see the item link to know what it did. So your assumption that it's uber rare and sought after seems a bit out of perspective.

I would say that it is the new DST, but I got my DST the first time I ran Gruul, it then dropped again the next time for the other rogue. I'm either uncannily lucky or the drop rates are nowhere near what people go by.

The drop rates are correct, you are just lucky. It hasn't dropped yet for my guild after 4 locks.

I agree that there is no need to bash deciding to go for this trinket, but it would be a reasonable decision to pass on it if you can get a greatness deck, since fury is basically the same as mirror, possibly worse for mutilate.

Rambaral · 12/15/08, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

1) They're not necessarily that much different - we come up with very similar EP weights for crit, which is the relevant factor. The point is that any spreadsheet models endless combat, and thus overestimates FotFF and underestimates Mirror. So, even though the spreadsheet might show more damage for FotFF, depening on your gear it may well be close enough that you will end up using Mirror in many if not most situations.

2) The differences between the spreadsheets are considerable; I think the major one causing differences (such as the Webbed Death/Sinister Revenge debate) is that it has a more extensive model of finisher rotations and poison restacking, and thus - in my opinion, anyway - more accurately reflects the damage gained by poison, envenom, and rupture. Of course, it may also contain mistakes, and I'm not going to claim that there's consensus that I'm absolutely right - I'm just saying that in the vast majority of circumstances there's a very strong case to be made for Mirror of Truth based on how it handles interrupted fights. You're welcome to hold a dissenting opinion, of course - that's why we have forums. I give my opinion and explain why, and you give your opinion and explain why, we argue about it for a while, and people can decide who they think is right

.

It's been my experience that the Mirror doesn't proc as often as I'd like. It seems to me that it has a non-standard rate compared to other procs.

And the Greatness card seems to proc off anything, It proc'ed on a dodge before I even hit the mob. I've been playing around with different combinations of the three, and so far it still "feels" better with the Fury and Card, although when Mirror kicks in you really see the boost. In case it hasn't been noted, FoK can proc anything, including poisons, trinkets, enchants, gear procs, the works.

Rambaral · 12/15/08, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by Feist-Mok

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ewtrinkets.jpg

There's the trinket.

Basically it's the PVP version of the Mirror of Truth, with Resillience instead of Crit rating, and chance on hit instead of chance on crit, presumably to cope w/ resil's crit reduction.

Hardly likely to be worthwhile.

I think you failed to see the increase by 1000 was to AP, not crit. Am I wrong in thinking this as good/better than mirror for a Mut rogue?

• Garrodd · 12/15/08, 2:27 PM

Originally Posted by Rambaral

I think you failed to see the increase by 1000 was to AP, not crit. Am I wrong in thinking this as good/better than mirror for a Mut rogue?

The proc on both mirror of truth and the new anvil of titans trinkets are identical. The only difference between the two trinkets (barring a difference of proc rate which hasn't been tested as far as I am aware) is the passive bonus. The mirror of truth has a passive bonus of crit, and the anvil of titans has a passive bonus of resilience. Therefore (assuming equal proc rates) the mirror of truth would be better for any non-pvp situation.

saedo · 12/15/08, 2:27 PM

Originally Posted by Rambaral

I think you failed to see the increase by 1000 was to AP, not crit. Am I wrong in thinking this as good/better than mirror for a Mut rogue?

Proc wise yes. Stat wise no because it trades the crit rating for resilience.

• Neto- · 12/15/08, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by Rambaral

It's been my experience that the Mirror doesn't proc as often as I'd like. It seems to me that it has a non-standard rate compared to other procs.

It does not. Mirror of Truth has a 50 seconds ICD, unlike the standard 45 seconds ICD that most trinkets have.

Azgorath4 · 12/15/08, 2:52 PM

So I decided to check out what shadowpanther was suggesting as the 'ultimate rogue pve set' and I noticed it only had 2 pieces of Valorous gear, the rest were the ''best in slots.'' Suggested was:

[Valorous Bonescythe Helmet]
[Valorous Bonescythe Pauldrons]
This puzzled me... so I did a little research:

[Valorous Bonescythe Breastplate] MAEP: 273 (-37 MAEP from suggested [Chestguard of the Recluse])

[Valorous Bonescythe Legplates] MAEP: 279 (-30 MAEP from suggested [Leggings of the Honored]

[Valorous Bonescythe Gauntlets] MAEP: 216 (-27 MAEP from suggested [Frosted Adroit Handguards]

So judging from MAEP Values the best 4 piece set would be the Helm, Shoulders, Leggings, Hands. With a total of -57 MAEP lost compared to the best in slot.

What would the value of 5% reduction to the cost of combo moves be? it seems pretty nice to me but at the same time unclear if its value would outweigh the stat reduction.

I didn't see if this was addressed anywhere else, sorry if it was and i just didn't see it.

Tinwhisker · 12/15/08, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Azgorath4

What would the value of 5% reduction to the cost of combo moves be? it seems pretty nice to me but at the same time unclear if its value would outweigh the stat reduction.

As you're currently spec'd HAT, I don't think it would do you any good. Eviscerate is not affected by the 5% reduction last I heard.

For other specs you're simply looking at 5% more mutilates/sinister strikes/backstabs in any given fight which is a direct DPS increase. This also has the indirect effect of a faster cycle resulting in more finishers.

Azgorath4 · 12/15/08, 3:09 PM

No no, i know atm that i'm HAT but when they fix hat i'll want to go either combat (assuming calamitys grasp) or mutilate and i just want to know if the trade-off is worth it.