WotLK Rogue Gear Discussion - Page 70

Kytrarewn · 08/13/09, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by Gunner52

Hello fellow rogues, here comes a trinket question. I have [Meteorite Whetstone] and [Pyrite Infuser] and I am wondering which is better for combat? I assume Pyrite infuser but the whetstone's 444 haste proc is attractive. I am currently combat swords and my OH, [Grasscutter] is a bit slow for how I'd like it, any help would be nice. Thanks and happy raiding!

Personal feelings about how fast a weapon should be do not outweigh mathematical realities. Plug both items into the spreadsheet, and you'll see Pyrite Infuser coming out well ahead despite the fact that your offhand is "too slow, I'd rather it were a little bit faster".

zahariel · 08/14/09, 6:43 PM

For you humans hoping to use a MH that hooks into your racial, the new-and-improved Onyxia in 3.2.2 appears to drop a new-and-improved level 245 version of Vis'kag the Bloodletter: 2.6 speed, 196.5dps, no stats, chance on hit to deal 2222 extra damage. The old one used to be pretty good, back in the day; it'll be interesting to see if the new version measures up.

Other revamped items include everyone's favorite Vendorstrike, both versions of which are restatted mostly with 2H tanks in mind: Thunderstrike is sta-heavy and has dodge, plus the chain lightning proc for threat; Shadowstrike still has the lifesteal proc, which now works for druids (who couldn't use it at the time and it wouldn't have worked anyway) and Blood DKs, who might see a non-trivial amount of extra healing from it.

Murr · 08/14/09, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by zahariel

For you humans hoping to use a MH that hooks into your racial, the new-and-improved Onyxia in 3.2.2 appears to drop a new-and-improved level 245 version of Vis'kag the Bloodletter: 2.6 speed, 196.5dps, no stats, chance on hit to deal 2222 extra damage. The old one used to be pretty good, back in the day; it'll be interesting to see if the new version measures up.

Other revamped items include everyone's favorite Vendorstrike, both versions of which are restatted mostly with 2H tanks in mind: Thunderstrike is sta-heavy and has dodge, plus the chain lightning proc for threat; Shadowstrike still has the lifesteal proc, which now works for druids (who couldn't use it at the time and it wouldn't have worked anyway) and Blood DKs, who might see a non-trivial amount of extra healing from it.

Another relevant point: they're most likely updating [Deathbringer] as well (there's an item in MMO Champ's DB that has the same icon, stats yet to be discovered) so there may be a similar quality MH Axe. I can only assume they'll tone it down from 2.9 speed, though

I believe the original Vis'kag was 1PPM, for theorycrafting purposes.

Xitrus · 08/15/09, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Murr

Another relevant point: they're most likely updating [Deathbringer] as well (there's an item in MMO Champ's DB that has the same icon, stats yet to be discovered) so there may be a similar quality MH Axe. I can only assume they'll tone it down from 2.9 speed, though

I believe the original Vis'kag was 1PPM, for theorycrafting purposes.

the "new" (10-man) [Deathbringer] comes with 178.9dps and is cut down to 2.7 speed

Empowered Deathbringer - Items - Sigrie

Murr · 08/15/09, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Xitrus

the "new" (10-man) [Deathbringer] comes with 178.9dps and is cut down to 2.7 speed

Empowered Deathbringer - Items - Sigrie

So assuming there's a 25 man version (which is reasonable, they seem to be mirroring the table and updating the item level), it should be quite good depending on that proc rate, and I'm assuming the proc is affected by things like CoE, Scorch, etc.

The new Bloodfang Hoods are nothing to sneeze at either - the lvl 232 version is quite good despite having 20 resistance points allocated

Bloodfang Mask - Items - Sigrie

MassMan · 08/21/09, 8:46 AM

It seems like t9.245 isn't worth it if you have access to toc10hc..

Both the 10manHC gloves and chest are significantly better than their t9.245 counterparts rather easily nullifying the 4set bonus.

Grunge · 08/22/09, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by MassMan

It seems like t9.245 isn't worth it if you have access to toc10hc..

Both the 10manHC gloves and chest are significantly better than their t9.245 counterparts rather easily nullifying the 4set bonus.

I think you mean 4pc T9.245 isn't worth it, Helm and Shoulders for the 2 piece bonus is still superior to alternatives. Even though not by much.

Murden · 08/22/09, 4:42 PM

Anyone do the math/plug the new gear into Aldriana's spread sheet and see the lack luster upgrade the new T9 (mid level non heroic triumph T9) gear gives. I gain a whopping 60 dps gemmed appropriatly. The dps loss of the T8 4 pieces is huge and the low gain on 5% SS crit makes it almost not worth it, especially considering all the emblems needed and the boring look of the set itself.

Anyone else notice this? is the increase dps that low?

By picking up the trumph emblem ring and replacing my old Stong-Handed Ring I gain more than replacing my entire T8 Conquest set with the T9 non heroic Triumph set. I must be missing something.

Rahdik · 08/22/09, 5:41 PM

If you look at the EP values on the side of the sheet you will notice the 4p T8 is worth over 350 EP and the T9 bonuses don't even come close to that.

-Shizuki- · 08/25/09, 11:32 AM

I'm just generally disappointed with the ToC loot. Given that I am pretty much the only rogue in our 25man I've gotten [Cuirass of Calamitous Fate], [Leggings of the Broken Beast], [Dirk of the Night Watch], and yet no way can I plug any of these in and gain any conceivable bonus over my well balanced setup i'm rolling with now. I have 4 t8.5 + the shoulder t8, and it looks as though maybe switching the chest out is a minor increase, but the 4set bonus is just too good for any more then that.. or maybe switch out the t8 shoulders for the 9.25 ones tonight, but then discard the two offset 245 pieces? Is having over 430 hit w/o gemming that frowned upon as a mutliate rogue. (or like previous posts have mentioned, is this a suggestion towards combat?)

Mideci · 08/25/09, 3:08 PM

There is nothing bad about having 430 hit and no one is telling you to play combat. I'm not sure where you read those things, but I doubt it was here.

Hit above the spell-hit cap is devalued as a stat. That's true. Hit may be less valuable for mutilate than combat. But hit is still increasing your dps. You can't magically take the hit off gear and using inferior pieces to "get rid of it" makes no sense at all.

As for your dilemma, you should consider combat if you have the weapons and your raid is not getting the Savage Combat / Blood Frenzy debuff. If you don't have good weapons and you do have an arms warrior, switching would hurt your raid as your dps would fall and the ability to apply Master Poisoner would go away.

Those legs are a pretty lackluster upgrade with my gear, but the chest piece is a pretty solid one. It might be true that the T9 245 shoulders are a bigger upgrade than the Cuirass and so if you got those, you could 4 pc T8 and go with the shoulders. The spreadsheet will tell you which is best.

Finally, if you are disappointed, let others get loot first. That's what I'll do. Those trophies are hardly in great supply, everyone wants them, and you (and most of us), don't exceptionally need them yet.

Gryzemuis · 08/25/09, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by Murden

Anyone do the math/plug the new gear into Aldriana's spread sheet and see the lack luster upgrade the new T9 (mid level non heroic triumph T9) gear gives. I gain a whopping 60 dps gemmed appropriatly.
Anyone else notice this? is the increase dps that low?

Yep.
I just filled in my gear with 4 different sets. This was what I saw:
(I have 5/5 T8.25, 2x swords, nothing from hardmodes).

T8.25 (current) - 7172 dps
T9 Conquest set (just EoTriumph) - 6976 dps
T9.25 (EoT + Trophy from 25m) - 7262 dps
T9.heroic (Regalia from heroic 25m) - 7593

My raidgroup is decent, but not hardcore. We have done a few hardmodes, but we won't be doing them every week. So the amount of incoming Regalia will be very low. That means I will have access to T9.25, but not the T9.heroic. To get a full set, I need 310 Emblems of Triumph and 5 Trophies of the Crusader. That's a lot of loot. I don't think I can justify taking any Trophies from other classes, when the endresult will be a meager 90 dps upgrade for me.

I already bought the Dexterious Brightstone ring. Which for me also was a bigger upgrade than the whole T9.25 set would be. The thrown weapon has expertise (I'm swimming in expertise). It seems I'm done already buying gear with Emblems of Triumph.

Well, the good thing is, there's no point in doing the daily heroic anymore.

Daarky · 08/25/09, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by Gryzemuis

(I'm swimming in expertise).

Just wondering, did you take off your expertise belt for your t9 test? t9.245 helm and shoulders alone are enough to cap combat on expertise, without any offset pieces, so wearing an expertise belt would skew your results.

Gryzemuis · 08/25/09, 6:12 PM

Originally Posted by Daarky

Just wondering, did you take off your expertise belt for your t9 test? t9.245 helm and shoulders alone are enough to cap combat on expertise, without any offset pieces, so wearing an expertise belt would skew your results.

Good call.
The beta version of the spreadsheet does not show the raw stats, so I didn't think of checking my expertise.
I replaced my Belt of the Twilight Assassin with a Relic Hunter's Cord.
And then I redid the numbers. In my current set, changing the belt changed my dps from 7172 to 7171.

Btw, what are the standard abbreviations for the different sets ?
T9 for the Conquest set ? (Just Emblems of Triump).
T9.25 for the Triumph set ? (Emblems of Triumph plus one Trophy from 25man).
T9.heroic for the Heroic Triumph set ? (Just one Regalia from heroic 25man).

5 pieces of T8.25 - 7171 dps
5 pieces of T9 - 7033 dps
3 pieces of T9.25 (helm/chest/legs) + 2 pieces of T8.25 - 7164 dps
4 pieces of T9.25 + 1 piece of T8.25 (shoulders) - 7253 dps
5 pieces of T9.25 - 7343 dps
5 pieces of T9.heroic - 7677

I think most of these gear combos did not reach the expertise cap, except for 5/5 T9.25 and 5/5 T9.heroic.
The numbers look a bit better, but still not spectacular.
Basically, changing T8.25 to T9.25 is an upgrade for 1 piece of T9.25, a downgrade for 2 or 3 pieces of T9.25. And upgrading to T9.25 is only really a dps increase when you have 4 or more pieces of T9.25. And even then, for me, the upgrade is worth only 82 dps for 4 pieces, and 172 dps for 5 pieces.

I assume these numbers will be multiplied a little bit when I upgrade my weapons, neck, trinket, ring.

Rahdik · 08/25/09, 6:21 PM

I've just been referring to the sets as T9.232, T9.245, and T9.258, which are the iLevels of the gear. You could say T9.10, T9.25, and T9.25H

BTW, if you find yourself with a lot of expertise, try taking points out of Weapon Expertise and then see if that increases the value of some pieces of gear.