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Old 01/05/10, 1:58 PM   #1261
robfang
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Rogue
 
The Venture Co (EU)
Originally Posted by Scrotis View Post
  1. At a certain point haste became greater than AP and then fell off again. Could this be from approaching the crit cap via haste stacking? Perhaps a bug in the spreadsheet?

That's just the natural order of things. You get more haste, ap becomes more valuable, more ap, haste become more valuable.

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Old 01/05/10, 9:20 PM   #1262
Mif
Glass Joe
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Proudmoore
Heartpierce was buffed today:

* The Invigoration buff from melee attacks using the Heartpierce dagger will now grant twice as much resources as before. It now grants 2 rage, 4 energy, or 120 mana every 2 seconds for 10 seconds.

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Old 01/05/10, 11:58 PM   #1263
Perforate-CC
Banned
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Cenarion Circle
Is it active on live servers yet? Mine still has to same text, but IDK if it is the same deal as the HfB nerf a few weeks back.

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Old 01/06/10, 1:43 AM   #1264
Mif
Glass Joe
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Perforate-CC View Post
Is it active on live servers yet? Mine still has to same text, but IDK if it is the same deal as the HfB nerf a few weeks back.
Hotfixes like this are entirely server side.
Tooltip changes are client side, thus require a patch.

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Old 01/06/10, 1:34 PM   #1265
Ari the Red
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Laughing Skull
I have a question regarding Heartpierce because I guess I don't understand the PPM mechanic as well as I thought. The current models, according to what I am reading, say that Heartpierce works on a 1 PPM per weapon, and yet, I have checked and double-checkd and occasionally mine is chain proccing three or four times in a row, which would mean that PPM is not a straight "Proc Per Minute" mechanic as I currently understand it, assuming the models are correct about Heartpierce's behavior. Then again, maybe I am just confused on how exactly a PPM mechanic functions. What's the story?

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Old 01/06/10, 1:51 PM   #1266
Tinwhisker
Bald Bull
 
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Dwarf Rogue
 
Scarlet Crusade
You're just confused, PPM means that it's proc chanced is based on weapon speed. The proc is actually a percentage chance with slower weapon having a higher percentage and faster weapon having a lower percentage. Like all percentage chances though, you can get some lucky RNG and get more than your expected procs. Of course you can also have bad luck and go through a dry spell as well.

Procs per minute - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft


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Old 01/06/10, 5:24 PM   #1267
Shaker
AUGH CHAMPION TIME
 
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Human Rogue
 
Elune
Yes, and additionally, you are thinking of the term "internal cooldown" (ICD) as being "unable to proc multiple times back to back".

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

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Old 01/06/10, 6:39 PM   #1268
Phrequency-
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Magtheridon
[Deathbringer's Will] now gives 600 haste as mutilate opposed to ArP

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Old 01/06/10, 7:26 PM   #1269
Greymist1
Von Kaiser
 
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Troll Rogue
 
The Forgotten Coast
Originally Posted by Tinwhisker View Post
Like all percentage chances though, you can get some lucky RNG and get more than your expected procs. Of course you can also have bad luck and go through a dry spell as well.

Procs per minute - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
It should be noted, though, that Heartpierce's proc is a bit more complicated. It procs due to hits from either hand, not just the one wielding it, and each hand is 1ppm. If you have Heartpierce MH and a 1.4 speed OH, the MH proc chance is 1/(60/1.8)=0.03, and the OH proc chance is 1/(60/1.4)=0.02333. So every hit with Heartpierce itself has a 3% chance of proccing, and every hit with a 1.4 OH has a 2.3% chance. Note that these figures are not affected by haste; if you get 100% haste (meaning you swing twice as fast as normal) it's still a 3%/2.3% chance for every MH/OH hit.

It also procs from combo point builders and finishers. I'm not aware of anyone having done the testing to accurately identify the chances, but it's a good bet that it just reuses the 1ppm chances.

Last but not least, poisons proc it too. I didn't test anything but IP and DP, but I did prove that it procs from both of them (note: only from DP applications, not from the DOT ticks). In fact, it double dips: when you're at a full 5 stack of Deadly and Deadly is reapplied, inducing an Instant proc, Heartpierce can proc from both events. The best known theory is that the chance for a Heartpierce proc from any of these poison events is the same as the melee chance for the weapon which procced the poison. IP procs which are induced by Deadly stack refreshes appear to be calculated with the Deadly hand's proc chance, not the IP hand's proc chance.

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Old 01/06/10, 10:00 PM   #1270
Narub
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Originally Posted by Phrequency- View Post
[Deathbringer's Will] now gives 600 haste as mutilate opposed to ArP

Apparently they removed the ArP procc alltogether as warriors are getting crit, haste & str now.

I tested this out on my alt rogue however for about 30 mins on a dummy and I can confirm the proccs are now 600 haste, 600 agility & 1200 attack power which makes this trinket just more powerfull, I don't know if speccs have anything to do with it but I doubt it as blizzard stated that the proccs might not be as good for specc "A" as specc "B" so haste, agility & AP should be the new rogue proccs.

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Old 01/07/10, 1:17 AM   #1271
Phrequency-
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Magtheridon
Originally Posted by Narub View Post
Apparently they removed the ArP procc alltogether as warriors are getting crit, haste & str now.

I tested this out on my alt rogue however for about 30 mins on a dummy and I can confirm the proccs are now 600 haste, 600 agility & 1200 attack power which makes this trinket just more powerfull, I don't know if speccs have anything to do with it but I doubt it as blizzard stated that the proccs might not be as good for specc "A" as specc "B" so haste, agility & AP should be the new rogue proccs.
yeah, MMOChamp just posted a little while ago
Deathbringer’s Will trinket will now proc haste as a replacement for armor penetration.

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Old 01/07/10, 6:27 AM   #1272
Chack
Piston Honda
 
Troll Rogue
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
The buffed proc chance on Heartpiece now actually makes it the best combat offhand regardless of weapon spec unless my maths are wrong. You can easily see 2/3 or more uptime of the buff, which is >1.33 energy/sec. You lose 17% combat potency procs compared to a 1.5 speed offhand. CP is 3 energy per hit, or about ~4 energy per sec with a 1.5 offhand, so ~0.7 energy lost by using heartpiece instead.

At least in my app Heartpiece is doing extrmely well, even with HnS spec.

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Old 01/07/10, 6:57 AM   #1273
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
On the other hand, you're losing quite a few stats to get that proc - I mean, I'll concede that Heartpierce may well beat a statless 1.5 dagger of equal DPS, but the reality is that most dagger OHs you might consider (which, I might not, are usually 1.4 speed anyway) have stats on them, which Heartpierce lacks.

Consider: the energy difference between a 1.8 OH and a 1.4 OH is usually approaching 1 energy per second. Heartpierce is usually under 1.5 energy per second. So you're losing 2/3 of the proc's benefit just on speed, making the proc (effectively) weaker than it was before the buff. And before the buff, the proc was generally found to be weaker than the commensurate amount of stats. And energy regen is better (relative to raw stats) for Mutilate than it is for combat. So it's less energy, which is less good, for an amount of stats which was found to be better. As such, odds of it making it to "good" seem... kinda vanishingly small.

Admittedly I haven't run the numbers - nor do I intend to, unless a more compelling case can be made - but offhand I'd say a 264 Heartpierce *might* compete with more traditional 245 OHs, but I'd be willing to be any reasonable 251+ option will prove better in practice.

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Old 01/07/10, 7:40 AM   #1274
Gregorin
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Steamwheedle Cartel (EU)
Using Heartpierce in OH also makes you lose a lot of poison dmg from DP procs, which needs to be added in when calculating if it is worth it.

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Old 01/07/10, 8:52 AM   #1275
Chack
Piston Honda
 
Troll Rogue
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
Yes, it is infact not as good as i thought it to be. Reason mostly that you lose up to 30% of the energy ticks to the proc getting refreshed before it gets to tick. If i look at numbers for my projected combat gear, the buff reaches an uptime of 85% but it has a 26% chance to refresh itself within the first 2 seconds, making it only 1.26 energy/sec instead of the estimated 1.7 at the first look.

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