Er, why would you be switching wound poison off of your (faster) offhand? Did you try Deadly on Calamity's Grasp and Instant on Hailstorm? This might account for the difference, I can't comment on CqC and Webbed Death vs. Sword spec and Hailstorm at the moment as I don't have a program that can open the spreadsheet on this computer.

Which one of this weapon combination is the better one in terms of DPS as mut? Omen of Ruin MH/Librarian Paper Cutter OH or Dual Librarian Paper Cutters?

Please make use of the tools given to you before asking the rest of the community to do it for you.

Probably, because sword spec procs from OH will give extra MH swings, which can proc poisons (WP in this case).

Could you be bothered to check if you see a dps increase with the gear you quoted + hailstorm if you use

sinister strike
rupture
blade flurry

glyphs and 2/2 improved slice & dice and 4/5 sword specialization?

And also

sinister strike
rupture
slice & dice

glyphs and 1/2 improved slice & dice and 5/5 sword specialization?

Nt sure about Kumar; but using my current gear, Kel's Reach & Windows Fury:

SS, Rupture and SnD Glyphs; and 1/2 improved SnD and 5/5 Sword Spec

Provides the highest DPS. However I was under the assumption that Grasp/Webbed Death [DP/WP], QcQ, 2/2 SnD provided the optimal setup - however it is just not showing in my Spreadsheet calculations. Am I missing something - bugged Spreadsheet or does the age old theory of Practical vs Theorycrafting apply again.

Yeah, this is certainly an alternative, but taking a point out of imp slice n dice and maxxing sword spec is certainly an alternative that shouldn't hurt anything. I've been running a 4+s/5r cycle (procs of SS glyph will occasionally make it a 5s/5r cycle) and generally have gobs of slice n dice time left. Ideally, as others have said in other threads Rupture and Slice n Dice uptime are really the only two keys to combat DPS right now. Since Slice n dice can be kept up with an abundance of time left, the real key is maximizing Rupture up time. Ideally you want to be chaining them as close together as possible, without risking over writting at all (or getting an error message if your current AP happens to be lower then the last Rupture due to procs).

With my current hit and crit numbers I'm finding the cycle I mentioned above quite comfortable. It is possible that as gear improves and hit and crit numbers increase it will be possible to maintain a 5s/5r/5e cycle and maintain rupture's uptime at or near 100%. I'm just not seeing it with current gear. If I do get lucky with SS glyph and/or Combat potency procs I may find myself built and ready with a 5 point rupture with 5-6 seconds left on the current rupture. I generally just continue to spam Sinister strike until Rupture expires or pool energy until it expires. There's probably a point at which you'd be further ahead to Eviscerate and simply let Rupture fall off for a few seconds before building back up again but I'm not sure where that point would be. It's generally less then 5 seconds so I've always presumed it was better to either pool energy or slip in a SS or two then allow Rupture to fall off for a good bit of time.

I seem to be in the exact situation atm with current gear etc. With 2/3 Imp SnD and 5/5 Sword Spec, using a 4s/5r rotation, I am able to comfortable keep SnD and Rupture to a close 100% uptime. The only issue im finding is receiving the "There is currently a more powerful spell active" due my AP constantly shifting.

1. In the above situation, is it better to pool energy and white damage, or spend energy on SS (even tho @ 5 CPs) while waiting for Rupture to tick off?

2. Back to the subject of gear; would a static damage output of Grasp MH/Webbed Death OH compared to relying on a Sword Spec proc from a Grasp MH/Hailstorm OH setup be better. The spreadsheet is showing Grasp/Hailstorm coming ahead slightly - but keep in mind Sword Spec is based on luck. [Basically comes down to me trying to figure out where to spend my DKP lol]

1) Put the third point into slice and dice and try running the numbers on three finisher cycles. I'm pretty sure you'll start pulling out ahead unless you've dropped a glyph to enjoy the killing spree bug or something.

2) Sword spec isn't based on luck. We hit fast enough, and model DPS around encounters long enough that the Law of Averages should do it's thing and the spreadsheets model can generally be regarded as accurate. The sword setup will probably benefit a little bit more from haste effects and cooldowns, and haste on gear maybe, but other than that, there's no real functional difference other than the DPS as modeled.

Personally, if the numbers are close enough to worry you, and you're truly facing a scarcity problem on these items, I'd go for Webbed Death for the versatility of being able to spec Mutilate or HAT whenever you should need to with the best MH in the game for it.

I haven't found where a three finisher cycle is greater DPS then a 2 finisher cycle, either in practice or via the spreadsheet.

Generally speaking, the time left on Rupture is small enough that you can simply allow energy to pool for 2-3 seconds and then pop it. You do want to be careful not to clip your Rupture, you will overwrite it if your current AP is higher then it was on the first Rupture. If I get extremely lucky on SS glyph and potency procs then I will see 5-6 seconds left on Rupture, even then though pooling energy and maybe popping one Sinister strike at 5 CP's gets back to the normal rotation. It's possible in those situations you'd be better to complete a 3 finisher cycle. However, you'd be worse off if in doing so you get a bad string of procs and have slice n dice drop.

Personally, I'd prefer to stay combat. I'm one of two extremely regular rogues raiding for our guild, and the other is mutilate. I've commited to staying combat for the Savage combat debuff. So while your advice about nabbing Webbed Death is certainly a good idea, I'm probably not the only "token" combat rogue out there that doesn't foresee switching to Mut.

Re: the spreadsheet, did you adjust the cycles accordingly? Set rupture and evisc cp to 5, and mess around with the slice and dice cp until you get the best combination for your gear. The general rule is to use as few on snd as possible while maintaining 100% up time. Obviously this can change depending on ss glyph procs, etc, but getting a feel for the timing of this so you can adjust on the fly is part of learning to play the spec well from an optimization stand point.

Maintaining 100% rupture uptime isn't important either, if the extra dmg from the eviscerate outweighs the lost ticks during the down time. How much time to give it varies with your gear, but a few seconds should be fine. Keeping up snd is the only uptime priority.

I am seeing the same thing as Oengus regardless of glyphs, snd/r/e cp adjustments, imp snd changes, etc. Could someone provide an example where they come ahead (combat spec) on the spreadsheet with a Xs/Xr/Xe rotation ? I am curious as to where and why one would benefit more from Xs/Xr/Xe as oppose to Xs/Xr.

In response to Leto, yeah, I spent a good deal of time playing with the spreadsheet. Part of the fun of new content in my opinion!

In my current gear with a 7/51/13 build, (5/5 CQC, 5/5 Sword, 1 Imp SnD. Glyphs of SnD, Sinister Strike, and Rupture)this is what I'm seeing as results from the spreadsheet:

3s/5r - 4363.59
4s/5r - 4361.73
5s/5r - 4334.47

For the following I dropped a point out of Sword spec and filled out Imp SnD:

3s/5r/5e - 4222.40
4s/5r/5e - 4254.66
5s/5r/5e - 4276.77


From a practicality stand point I've found 4s/5r to be easier to maintain then 3s/5r. It's nice to have the buffer in Slice n Dice up time for most fights (running in and out, fights you have to kick, etc. ).

Unless specified it is with 1/2 SnD and SnD Glyph

Using my ideal gear and 15/51/5 I have found that i get the following numbers.
5005 - 5/5 (2/2 SD)
5008 - 5/5/5
5022 - 5/5 (w/ BF glyph)
5026 - 4/5/5 (2/2 SD)
5029 - 5/5/5 (2/2 SD)
5042 - 3/5/5 (2/2 SD)

Using my ideal gear and 7/51/13 I have found that i get the following numbers.
4969 - 5/5/5 (w/ BF glyph)
5022 - 3/5 (w/ BF glyph)
5032 - 4/5
5043 - 5/5 (w/ BF glyph)
5047 - 4/5 (w/ BF glyph)

Looks like using Calamity/Hailstorm, 7/15/13, 4s/5r rotation, with 1/2 SnD, and the BF glyph provides the best performance. Howver the standard old school build of 15/51/5, with 2/2 SnD, and the SnD glyph is fairly comparible.

(Non of these used the AR glyph due to the correction coming very soon)

Whats your idea gear combination in this case?

So it seems that the only time x/x/x would out perform x/x was if you didnt have blood spatter and serrated blades (7/15/13) but results in less overall dps. I have played around with the spread sheet and found the same thing based on my current gear. Was kind of hoping that a x/x/x was viable (max dps) and i had overlooked something.

I found 15/51/5 to be the highest dps for my gear, though that may just be because I never have mangle in raids.

I think something important whenc comparing 3/5/5 which is optimal for 15/51/5 is that it is far more challenging to maintain then 4/5 in a 7/51/13 build.

It seems to me the spikes of SS glyph procs and Combat Potency throw real kinks into a 3 rotation finisher. Does it make any sense to try a 7/51/13 build with 2 in ruthlessness instead of blood spatter? When I get a burst of combo points and energy (ss glyph + CP procs), I can either waste the extra combo points waiting for rupture to fall, or go for an evisc. Every single f'ing time I go for the evisc it seems like I run totally dry afterwards, praying for procs to get my higher damage finishers going again. With Ruthlessness I'd feel much safer going for eviscs when such bursts occur, as I have a 40% better chance of getting my next finisher up again soon.

Lets hope it only gets better.


Really ? The comparisons i made were without raid buffs. Only buffs i have chosen in the spread sheet are +80Ap food and 180Ap flask so i dont think its mangle. Not to mention we are obviously geared / gem differently. Will play around with spread sheet some more.


I also run into this issue. It feels like rupture is down forever while rebuilding CP's .... As you said I often waste a cp while pooling if i cannot over write. I may have to give that a try if i go 15/51/5 as i dont want to waste the bonus to rupture serrated gives by not going splatter as well.

I ran a 3 rotation finisher when i was new to 80 and had pretty rough gear and ran into similar instances as you where in the longer rotations they are more suseptible to excessive points or being starved and rarely do i feel it is 100% smooth. However i really think that in a longer term modeling you will still comeout ahead to say drop snD for 2 sec or even pop a 3-4 pointer and possibly skip an evic on the next cycle then to drop bloodsplatter. I dont know any numbers or anything for that in particular but in general i prefer to make my decisions based on best case scenario (which i think really usually the case in a general 5min fight)

This is a question to everyone who min/maxes on there spreadsheet. I am looking to see who has achieved the highest DPS on the sheet using what you feel optimal? I just want to make sure someone hasn't found something i am missing when choosing gear/gems/enchants.

Right now with full buffs (all food buffs/enchants/raid buffs and pots) as combat 7/51/13 i have 5125.72. If someone gets a higher value let me know what you have as optimal buffs/ect.