Pocket Guide to WOTLK (updated for 3.2) - Page 11

ekval · 12/18/08, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Bliksem

By the way, mongoose > accuracy.

This is not necessarily true, at certain gear level Accuracy > Mongoose as offhand enchant. Also there has been talk about Mongoose's proc rate going down when level goes up from 70 to 80.

RobertM · 12/19/08, 6:17 AM

Originally Posted by Cally

EP Weights for Level 80 (Rough Draft)

Originally posted by Aldriana.

For Mutilate:

Stat	EP
Str	1.1
Agi	2.0
Crit	1.6
Exp	1.9
Haste	1.4
ArPen	1.0

Hit is worth about 2.2 below the yellow hit cap, 1.8 below the poison hit cap, and 1.3 above both caps.

For Combat:

Stat	EP
Str	1.1
Agi	2.0
Crit	1.5
Exp	1.6
Haste	1.4
ArPen	1.2

Hit is about 1.8 below the yellow hit cap, 1.6 below the poison hit cap, and 1.4 thereafter.

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but since this article mentions these EP Weights, I believe it may be worth asking.

Is there any way to assign some kind of value to weapon DPS in the same very rough way that other stats are assigned "Equivalence Points"?

• Aldriana · 12/19/08, 6:58 AM

Yes, any itemization parameter can be converted to EP; for Mutilate, 1 MH DPS is worth around 4.1 EP, and 1 OH DPS is around 3.1 EP. It should also be noted that speed plays a vital role in DPS for both hands as well; my best estimates for Mutilate put each .1 increase in MH speed at around 35 EP, and each .1 increase of OH speed around 75 EP.

Edit: don't use these numbers. There was a bug in the sheet

As an additional note, I'd probably revise the Mutilate EP chart above a bit based on my latest spreadsheet revision; I'd bump expertise up to 2.0, haste to 1.5, and ArPen to 1.1, while dropping hit below to poison hit cap to 1.6.

• Neto- · 12/19/08, 7:26 AM

One thing worth to keep in mind, though, is that the faster your weapon is, the higher the DPS increase is.

I got these results using the default gear in Aldriana's spreadsheet:

Mainhand DPS loss:

62.10 = 1.3 -> 1.4
52.77 = 1.4 -> 1.5
45.03 = 1.5 -> 1.6
38.55 = 1.6 -> 1.7
33.07 = 1.7 -> 1.8

Offhand DPS loss:

80.14 = 1.3 -> 1.4
69.27 = 1.4 -> 1.5
60.39 = 1.5 -> 1.6
53.10 = 1.6 -> 1.7
47.04 = 1.7 -> 1.8

Clemenza · 12/19/08, 7:58 AM

First of, thanks everyone here for the great work. I have been reading the forums for months and it improved my understanding of the class. Sorry for my bad English. English is not my first language.

Question to you, Aldriana:
I know you have tried to stay below the Level 70 hit cap through bc in order to optimize your dps on adds/trash and to improve survivability through additional dodge provided by gemming more towards agility. At this time hit was very slightly better in terms of pure dps.

Now given your updated ep weights in post 253, it should not make any difference whether you gem ap/agility or expertise in terms of boss dps. But gemming for ap/agility would improve your dps on adds/trash once you have passed the level 80 expertise cap.

So it would be intuitive to gem for ap/agility. But as I can see from the armory, you have gemed for expertise up to the cap.

Can you maybe tell why you prefer expertise? I am asking this because I am interested in the reasoning behind your choice.

• Aldriana · 12/19/08, 8:22 AM

It's a valid question, and what is basically comes down to is that I've found that dodges are disruptive to my cycles in ways that aren't adequately reflected by the current spreadsheets. It costs energy, which is modeled; but the GCDs it takes to reapply is not, and can be devastating at times - for instance, when the SnD and HFB timers are coming up in short succession, or during a cycle in which ruthlessness seldom procs causing your SnD to be in danger of falling off. So I find the increased cycle stability to be generally worth the trash DPS hit.

Basically: Mutilate is a complex enough cycle without having to worry about cycle instabilities such as dodged attacks, insufficient poison stacks, and other such headaches. Hence, my rule of thumb is that anything that can be used to suppress cycle variation is all to the good; in addition to capping expertise, I've adopted the philosophy that, for items of otherwise comparable value, it's generally advantageous to take the ones that are itemized more towards crit/hit/haste and less towards AP/ArPen.

That's the main reason; however, there are two other reasons worth making note of.

1) It's more common to find oneself attacking from the front at times on trash pulls, in which case Expertise still helps mitigate parries and isn't capped at all, and

2) A large portion of my gemming strategy is devoted to coming out even on expertise - that is, assuming Expertise is truncated (which, as it turns out, might not be the case - additional testing is needed), it's advantageous to be as close to a breakpoint as you can without going over. And in general this is done by gemming expertise with gems of different sizes to get as close as you can based on your gear. This principle would mandate the 27 Expertise gem at the very least.

songster · 12/19/08, 8:36 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

As an additional note, I'd probably revise the Mutilate EP chart above a bit based on my latest spreadsheet revision; I'd bump expertise up to 2.0, haste to 1.5, and ArPen to 1.1, while dropping hit below to poison hit cap to 1.6.

Can you comment on the drop in +hit importance? I would have thought that the same "cycle stability" issues apply as with expertise - you want to make sure DP is on the mob for Mutilate and Envenom, and poison misses can noticeably affect that. In addition, there are ramp-up issues at the start of the fight (i.e. before you start getting the Envenom buff up regularly): not significant in a longer fight, but definitely not negligible on fights of 2-5 minutes in length.

This may reflect a dependence on your weapon speed - I'm unlucky enough to still be using [The Fleshshaper] and [Librarian's Paper Cutter]. Probably the lower speed on the MH with DP means I need that much more +hit to make sure the DP stack is adequate.

• Neto- · 12/19/08, 8:41 AM

His spreadsheet actually ranks [Librarian's Paper Cutter] substantially higher than [The Fleshshaper], for that very reasoning (DP uptime).

(both with my gear and with the best in slot gear - also, Attack Power is actually better than Agility by a 0.03~ DPS for 1 agility that's changed to 2 AP for my gear level, whereas for best in slot gear level Agility tends to be 0.01~ DPS higher)

• Aldriana · 12/19/08, 8:41 AM

To be quite honest, I'm not entirely sure what's inducing the drop - I'm just pulling numbers out of my spreadsheet, and that's what I came up with. You're welcome to poke through it yourself and see if you can figure out why - or I imagine I'll get to it at some point (though not necessarily this weekend). It is, of course, entirely possible that I've made a mistake somewhere which is causing poison hit to be undervalued.

Perini · 12/19/08, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

To be quite honest, I'm not entirely sure what's inducing the drop - I'm just pulling numbers out of my spreadsheet, and that's what I came up with. You're welcome to poke through it yourself and see if you can figure out why - or I imagine I'll get to it at some point (though not necessarily this weekend). It is, of course, entirely possible that I've made a mistake somewhere which is causing poison hit to be undervalued.

Hey Aldriana, apologies if this has been covered elsewhere. I am currently spec'd combat (except on Raid days, when I'm HaT).

I noticed that there seems to be quite the disparity among EJ rogues in terms of valuing Hit rating. You and Vulajin have under 200 hit when I look at your Armory page. Chalon has 270ish. You're all spec'd Mutilate, though.

As far as whatever consensus has been determined about Hit rating, how much (if at all) should it change from a Mutilate to Combat spec?

I have around 270 hit right now, with 5/5 precision in a Combat spec. Am I overdoing it? I suppose for Heroics and grinding, it's not as critical to watch your Hit rating closely, but for raiding, is 270 still higher than it needs to be? Would I be better off slapping together more AP/Agility gems?

Thanks in advance...

• Neto- · 12/19/08, 2:41 PM

Originally Posted by Perini

Hey Aldriana, apologies if this has been covered elsewhere. I am currently spec'd combat (except on Raid days, when I'm HaT).

I noticed that there seems to be quite the disparity among EJ rogues in terms of valuing Hit rating. You and Vulajin have under 200 hit when I look at your Armory page. Chalon has 270ish. You're all spec'd Mutilate, though.

As far as whatever consensus has been determined about Hit rating, how much (if at all) should it change from a Mutilate to Combat spec?

I have around 270 hit right now, with 5/5 precision in a Combat spec. Am I overdoing it? I suppose for Heroics and grinding, it's not as critical to watch your Hit rating closely, but for raiding, is 270 still higher than it needs to be? Would I be better off slapping together more AP/Agility gems?

Thanks in advance...

This has been covered extensively in many threads and is actually asked daily. You should search better.

For what it's worth, if it still isn't clear, there is no magic hit number. How much hit you have only affect your orange gem choices, as you'd prefer gems with hit until 237 hit rating. Vulajin, Aldriana and Chalon have low hit because hit doesn't add as much DPS as other stats, so the only hit they have is what is in their gear.

Tinwhisker · 12/19/08, 2:47 PM

Originally Posted by Perini

I noticed that there seems to be quite the disparity among EJ rogues in terms of valuing Hit rating. You and Vulajin have under 200 hit when I look at your Armory page. Chalon has 270ish. You're all spec'd Mutilate, though.

As far as whatever consensus has been determined about Hit rating, how much (if at all) should it change from a Mutilate to Combat spec?

It's been stated multiple times that there isn't a magic number and as such the gear that each rogue has available to them based on what has or hasn't dropped for them.

In short, the rogues you mentioned are using the best gear available to them; sometimes this means that they'll be be wearing gear that has more (or less) hit, haste, or armor penetration than is ideal. I'd pay more attention to gem choices.

• Aldriana · 12/19/08, 6:09 PM

Originally Posted by songster

Can you comment on the drop in +hit importance? I would have thought that the same "cycle stability" issues apply as with expertise - you want to make sure DP is on the mob for Mutilate and Envenom, and poison misses can noticeably affect that.

And the answer is: I made a mistake in my sheet. I've edited the above to indicate that those numbers should not be used. As it turns out the value of hit below the poison cap (and, thus, below the yellow hit cap as well) look to be significantly higher than originally indicated; however, I'm still checking my calculations so don't want to propose new numbers quite yet.

Terenus · 12/19/08, 8:46 PM

A question I had regarding Muti pve specs-
I'm having trouble deciding between Turn the Tables and Master Poisoner. I've heard that Master Poisoner is better for 5/10 mans, and Turn the Tables for 25 mans. As of right now I'm doing a mix of both, with neither claiming importance over the other. What would you say is the better option overall?

Tinwhisker · 12/19/08, 9:24 PM

Originally Posted by Terenus

A question I had regarding Muti pve specs-
I'm having trouble deciding between Turn the Tables and Master Poisoner. I've heard that Master Poisoner is better for 5/10 mans, and Turn the Tables for 25 mans. As of right now I'm doing a mix of both, with neither claiming importance over the other. What would you say is the better option overall?

If you have a Ret Paladin or Elemental Shaman in your group then take Turn the Tables as I can't imagine any scenario where those two to not take the overwriting talents (Heart of the Crusader / Totem of Wrath). If you never (or extremely rarely) play with either of those classes then take Master Poisoner.

Cottonpoof · 12/20/08, 7:11 PM

I'm a first time poster, but a long time reader. I just wanted to share something i noticed that i haven't seen brought up on these threads...

If you pick up Quick Recovery and your envenom gets dodged or parried, you still gain the envenom buff. What i've been doing is after a dodged envenom, eviserating to refresh SnD. This gives me the full SnD time, envenom buff, AND i don't lose the stacks of deadly poison.

When i do this i only lose an average of 750 damage from eviserate not hitting as hard as envenom, but gain the full 5 stacks ticks of deadly which tick for 1.5k and the 15% bonus to instant and deadly poison procs.

I was wondering, knowing how difficult it is to properly model deadly poison stacks, if this bug would decrease the EP values of expertise in mutilate builds with Quick Recovery.

Xenothaulus · 12/20/08, 8:06 PM

This happens whether you have QR or not. You can wait the second or so for the GCD to hit your envenom key again rather than eviscerating; the envenom buff will allow you to restack DP pretty quickly.

Penumbruis · 12/22/08, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Echophantom

Just because you don't believe it's optimal doesn't mean it isn't. The thing is, DPS comes down to a numbers game in the end, which is why spreadsheets and models are so useful for us. If the numbers say you are wrong, the end result is that you are wrong, not the other way around.

I was being polite.

For combat swords (7/51/13) what is in the first post is not the optimal cycle. The optimal cycle is something like 3s/5r. As you get better gear the two do get closer but 3s/5r still has the edge.

Below are the results in XML of the two cycles in question, 30000 second fight, 7000 base armour on the mob of same level. The stats have been increased a little to simulate a decently geared character.

<Strategies>
  <Strategy>
    <Description>5s/5r/5e. If 12s or more left on Snd when time to evis then pool energy and wait.  If reach maximum energy at any point then SS.</Description>
    <Build>00502000000000000000000000002520520000050152231005212515002210030000000000000000000</Build>
    <PlayerStats>
      <Agility>1300</Agility>
      <AttackPower>5000</AttackPower>
      <CritRating>350</CritRating>
      <HitRating>350</HitRating>
      <HasteRating>350</HasteRating>
      <ExpertiseRating>110</ExpertiseRating>
      <MajorGlyph1>Rupture</MajorGlyph1>
      <MajorGlyph2>SinisterStrike</MajorGlyph2>
      <MajorGlyph3>SliceAndDice</MajorGlyph3>
    </PlayerStats>
    <Weapon>
      <Hand>MainHand</Hand>
      <WeaponType>Sword</WeaponType>
      <Poison>Wound</Poison>
      <MinDamage>281</MinDamage>
      <MaxDamage>422</MaxDamage>
      <Speed>2.7</Speed>
    </Weapon>
    <Weapon>
      <Hand>OffHand</Hand>
      <WeaponType>Sword</WeaponType>
      <Poison>Deadly</Poison>
      <MinDamage>126</MinDamage>
      <MaxDamage>234</MaxDamage>
      <Speed>1.5</Speed>
    </Weapon>
    <AdditionalStats>
      <SecondsSliceAndDiceNotUp>180.61</SecondsSliceAndDiceNotUp>
      <SecondsRuptureNotUp>13435.21</SecondsRuptureNotUp>
      <SecondsDeadlyPoisonNotUp>701.26</SecondsDeadlyPoisonNotUp>
      <SecondsAtMaxEnergy>111.89</SecondsAtMaxEnergy>
      <TotalComboPointsGenerated>12666</TotalComboPointsGenerated>
      <TotalComboPointsGeneratedWasted>1233</TotalComboPointsGeneratedWasted>
      <TotalComboPointsGeneratedPerSecond>0.4222</TotalComboPointsGeneratedPerSecond>
      <TotalComboPointsGeneratedWastedPerSecond>0.0411</TotalComboPointsGeneratedWastedPerSecond>
    </AdditionalStats>
    <Statistics>
      <Stat Type="MainHandWhite" TotalAttackCount="17582" HitCount="9381" HitPercentage="53.36" BiggestHit="882.39" CritPercentage="27.90" BiggestCrit="1,941.27" MissCount="1547" MissPercentage="8.80" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="1748" GlancingBlowPercentage="9.94" TotalDamage="16,890,174.87" TotalDPS="563.01" />
      <Stat Type="OffHandWhite" TotalAttackCount="30754" HitCount="16337" HitPercentage="53.12" BiggestHit="367.46" CritPercentage="28.59" BiggestCrit="808.41" MissCount="2557" MissPercentage="8.31" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="3067" GlancingBlowPercentage="9.97" TotalDamage="12,186,917.52" TotalDPS="406.23" />
      <Stat Type="KillingSpree" TotalAttackCount="250" HitCount="250" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="0.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="0.00" TotalDPS="0.00" />
      <Stat Type="CombatPotency" TotalAttackCount="5561" HitCount="5561" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="0.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="0.00" TotalDPS="0.00" />
      <Stat Type="BladeFlurry" TotalAttackCount="250" HitCount="250" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="0.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="0.00" TotalDPS="0.00" />
      <Stat Type="SinisterStrike" TotalAttackCount="11071" HitCount="7906" HitPercentage="71.41" BiggestHit="1,253.85" CritPercentage="28.59" BiggestCrit="2,758.37" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="17,730,762.22" TotalDPS="591.03" />
      <Stat Type="WoundPoison" TotalAttackCount="15527" HitCount="15527" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="431.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="6,692,137.00" TotalDPS="223.07" />
      <Stat Type="SwordSpecExtraHit" TotalAttackCount="2819" HitCount="1508" HitPercentage="53.49" BiggestHit="882.33" CritPercentage="27.95" BiggestCrit="1,941.25" MissCount="224" MissPercentage="7.95" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="299" GlancingBlowPercentage="10.61" TotalDamage="2,716,201.03" TotalDPS="90.54" />
      <Stat Type="DeadlyPoison" TotalAttackCount="8425" HitCount="8425" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="0.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="0.00" TotalDPS="0.00" />
      <Stat Type="RelentlessStrikes" TotalAttackCount="2286" HitCount="2286" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="0.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="0.00" TotalDPS="0.00" />
      <Stat Type="SliceAndDice" TotalAttackCount="829" HitCount="829" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="0.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="0.00" TotalDPS="0.00" />
      <Stat Type="DeadlyPoisonTick" TotalAttackCount="9668" HitCount="9668" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="870.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="8,075,166.00" TotalDPS="269.17" />
      <Stat Type="Rupture" TotalAttackCount="829" HitCount="829" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="0.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="0.00" TotalDPS="0.00" />
      <Stat Type="RuptureTick" TotalAttackCount="8282" HitCount="8282" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="660.14" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="5,465,112.13" TotalDPS="182.17" />
      <Stat Type="Eviscerate" TotalAttackCount="628" HitCount="440" HitPercentage="70.06" BiggestHit="2,727.57" CritPercentage="29.94" BiggestCrit="5,443.43" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="1,927,166.09" TotalDPS="64.24" />
      <Stat Type="Totals" TotalDamage="71,683,636.86" TotalDPS="2,389.45" />
    </Statistics>
  </Strategy>
  <Strategy>
    <Description>3s/5r. If reach maximum energy at any point then SS.</Description>
    <Build>00502000000000000000000000002520520000050152231005212515002210030000000000000000000</Build>
    <PlayerStats>
      <Agility>1300</Agility>
      <AttackPower>5000</AttackPower>
      <CritRating>350</CritRating>
      <HitRating>350</HitRating>
      <HasteRating>350</HasteRating>
      <ExpertiseRating>110</ExpertiseRating>
      <MajorGlyph1>Rupture</MajorGlyph1>
      <MajorGlyph2>SinisterStrike</MajorGlyph2>
      <MajorGlyph3>SliceAndDice</MajorGlyph3>
    </PlayerStats>
    <Weapon>
      <Hand>MainHand</Hand>
      <WeaponType>Sword</WeaponType>
      <Poison>Wound</Poison>
      <MinDamage>281</MinDamage>
      <MaxDamage>422</MaxDamage>
      <Speed>2.7</Speed>
    </Weapon>
    <Weapon>
      <Hand>OffHand</Hand>
      <WeaponType>Sword</WeaponType>
      <Poison>Deadly</Poison>
      <MinDamage>126</MinDamage>
      <MaxDamage>234</MaxDamage>
      <Speed>1.5</Speed>
    </Weapon>
    <AdditionalStats>
      <SecondsSliceAndDiceNotUp>3.41</SecondsSliceAndDiceNotUp>
      <SecondsRuptureNotUp>532.63</SecondsRuptureNotUp>
      <SecondsDeadlyPoisonNotUp>535.84</SecondsDeadlyPoisonNotUp>
      <SecondsAtMaxEnergy>938.86</SecondsAtMaxEnergy>
      <TotalComboPointsGenerated>12145</TotalComboPointsGenerated>
      <TotalComboPointsGeneratedWasted>172</TotalComboPointsGeneratedWasted>
      <TotalComboPointsGeneratedPerSecond>0.4048333333333333333333333333</TotalComboPointsGeneratedPerSecond>
      <TotalComboPointsGeneratedWastedPerSecond>0.0057333333333333333333333333</TotalComboPointsGeneratedWastedPerSecond>
    </AdditionalStats>
    <Statistics>
      <Stat Type="WoundPoison" TotalAttackCount="15261" HitCount="15261" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="431.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="6,577,491.00" TotalDPS="219.25" />
      <Stat Type="MainHandWhite" TotalAttackCount="17610" HitCount="9320" HitPercentage="52.92" BiggestHit="882.41" CritPercentage="28.72" BiggestCrit="1,941.29" MissCount="1512" MissPercentage="8.59" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="1721" GlancingBlowPercentage="9.77" TotalDamage="17,119,334.21" TotalDPS="570.64" />
      <Stat Type="DeadlyPoison" TotalAttackCount="8538" HitCount="8538" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="0.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="0.00" TotalDPS="0.00" />
      <Stat Type="OffHandWhite" TotalAttackCount="30800" HitCount="16434" HitPercentage="53.36" BiggestHit="367.46" CritPercentage="28.45" BiggestCrit="808.38" MissCount="2510" MissPercentage="8.15" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="3093" GlancingBlowPercentage="10.04" TotalDamage="12,199,565.59" TotalDPS="406.65" />
      <Stat Type="KillingSpree" TotalAttackCount="250" HitCount="250" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="0.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="0.00" TotalDPS="0.00" />
      <Stat Type="BladeFlurry" TotalAttackCount="250" HitCount="250" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="0.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="0.00" TotalDPS="0.00" />
      <Stat Type="CombatPotency" TotalAttackCount="5724" HitCount="5724" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="0.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="0.00" TotalDPS="0.00" />
      <Stat Type="SinisterStrike" TotalAttackCount="10661" HitCount="7675" HitPercentage="71.99" BiggestHit="1,253.87" CritPercentage="28.01" BiggestCrit="2,758.43" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="16,990,071.24" TotalDPS="566.34" />
      <Stat Type="DeadlyPoisonTick" TotalAttackCount="9727" HitCount="9727" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="870.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="8,163,558.00" TotalDPS="272.12" />
      <Stat Type="SliceAndDice" TotalAttackCount="1475" HitCount="1475" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="0.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="0.00" TotalDPS="0.00" />
      <Stat Type="SwordSpecExtraHit" TotalAttackCount="2812" HitCount="1528" HitPercentage="54.34" BiggestHit="882.39" CritPercentage="28.13" BiggestCrit="1,941.06" MissCount="237" MissPercentage="8.43" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="256" GlancingBlowPercentage="9.10" TotalDamage="2,735,545.78" TotalDPS="91.18" />
      <Stat Type="RelentlessStrikes" TotalAttackCount="2408" HitCount="2408" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="0.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="0.00" TotalDPS="0.00" />
      <Stat Type="Rupture" TotalAttackCount="1474" HitCount="1474" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="0.00" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="0.00" TotalDPS="0.00" />
      <Stat Type="RuptureTick" TotalAttackCount="14733" HitCount="14733" HitPercentage="100.00" BiggestHit="660.14" CritPercentage="0.00" BiggestCrit="0.00" MissCount="0" MissPercentage="0.00" DodgeCount="0" DodgePercentage="0.00" GlancingBlowCount="0" GlancingBlowPercentage="0.00" TotalDamage="9,721,888.91" TotalDPS="324.06" />
      <Stat Type="Totals" TotalDamage="73,507,454.73" TotalDPS="2,450.25" />
    </Statistics>
  </Strategy>
</Strategies>

drumbum · 12/23/08, 9:47 AM

FYI, in this post there is some fairly convincing evidence that the dual wield miss rate is 27%, not 28%, as might be expected. Therefore it's probably reasonable to update the white miss caps on the first post of this thread to reflect this. If you don't feel like re-calculating them yourself, you can see the appropriate values in this post that I updated earlier.

Ascari · 12/23/08, 11:54 PM

I have a small question...and a small problem in a way. I tested this out on the 80 boss, 80 regular and 70, 60 target dummies in Org. I used 2x Librarian Cutters (since i was told it's the best dagger for mutilate until late Nax).

I am mutilate spec btw, copied from here.

From my testing out, it seems i have the following cycles and dps differences, this in order from highest dps to lowest dps:
1. Wound Poison + Wound Poison with Mutilate x2 > Eviscerate (Roughly 2.4k dps on 80 boss)
2. Wound Poison + Instant Poison with Mutilate x2 > Eviscerate (Roughly 2.3k dps on 80 boss)
3. Instant Poison + Instant Poison with Mutilate x2 > Eviscerate (Roughly 2.1k dps on 80 boss)
4. Deadly Poison + Instant Poison with Mutilate x2 > Envenom (Roughly 1.9k dps on 80 boss)
5. Putting rupture into the cycle there and still keeping HfB and SnD up drops my dps down by about 200.

Anyone help me? I'm not sure what i'm doing wrong.

I'm asking for help and education, don't flame me please like official forums?

Another thing. I drop down to 2890 Ap using 2x Librarian cutter from 3084 using Traditional Flensing Knife and Dagger of Betrayal. Is it worth it?

Liminality · 12/24/08, 12:51 AM

you are using the right spec from what i glanced over

Papercutters are better than those other two daggers. The damage from poisons will outdamage their higher muti damage.

some more questions

what glyphs are you using?

how long did you test?

do you have a recount or wws that can compare them?

eyeball DPS isn't usually the best indicator

A thought off the top of my head: the dummy was level 80 and not a raid boss level. Therefore, the fact that poisons and envenom ignore armor wasn't showing as prominently as it should.

Sneakiest · 12/24/08, 12:51 AM

At your AP level and with 5/5 improved poisons as the talent presets here show, the only reason I can think of your WP outperforming your IP is you're using an incorrect rank of IP. At their respective higher ranks (WPVII and IPIX) IP should outperform WP with 5/5 improved. The same might apply to 'deadly' case. I'm not sure what kind of conditions you're running your DPS check under, but be sure they're equal for every test (same time ~, large sample for each test, no additional debuffs on the dummy that might skewer any real comparision).

1. Mutilate to 4+ Combo Points
2. Make sure Hunger for Blood isn't going to drop soon. Refresh it if it will.
3. Is Rupture up? If yes, Envenom. Go to step 1.
4. Does Slice and Dice have >12 seconds left? If no, Envenom. Go to Step 1.
5. Rupture. Go to Step 1.

When following this, refresh HfB only if it's around it's very last few seconds (0-2 seconds). Don't constantly refresh it otherwise you're wasting DPS by burning energy needlessly. Also, don't mutilate twice every time (it's my understanding that's what you're doing) - mutilate's combo point generation is dynamic due to seal fate and you could easily end up with 2 or 3 combo points. For instance, if you get a ruthlessness proc after a finisher and you get a double crit mutilate after that, you'll end up with 4 combo points after a single mutilate (1 + 3 from mutilate).

Also be sure to let your timers extend as possible by pooling energy, don't just keep blowing through your energy, watch your timers and let your energy fill up a bit while avoiding it from reaching the cap. Just don't keep spamming eviscerate/envenom whenever you can to refresh SnD otherwise you're just wasting whatever time you have left from slice, meaning you'll need to refresh it again sooner than you would. Let SnD tick away, if it's close to it's ending (1-2 seconds left), use your ability, if you're close to capping energy and it's still far off from fading (say, ten seconds left), then refresh it anyway. While following this you should also try to use envenom right after a deadly poison tick to make the best use of it's DoT.

I'm not entirely sure if pooling energy as I just suggested is entirely optimal, but I don't really read every single thread on these forums and I haven't really bumped into any discussion over it, so apologies if anything's misleading/incorrect.

• Neto- · 12/24/08, 1:16 AM

The real answer is that target dummies DPS is heavily influenced by sheer luck and will almost all the time be absolutely meaningless, and that's not to mention that you won't be having any kind of raid buffs. Mutilate is a very "random" spec, as in, your cycles and the amount of CPs you get can and will change heavily depending on how many crits you get, Ruthlessness procs, and more.

You didn't specify for how long you were "testing", and quite frankly, we don't really care about dummy DPS for the many reasons stated previously. Use a spreadsheet if you want to compare items and find a good cycle.

Ascari · 12/24/08, 1:32 AM

Thank you for the replies.

There are 2 lvl 80 dummies, one is heroic boss one is just lvl 80. I tested on heroic lvl 80.

Each test done was just HfB nothing else and i did this for about 200k worth of damage each time.

The reason that WP outdamages the IP a bit is because of the 50% bonus from mutilate that i get on poisoned targets.

I do refresh my HfB and SnD a bit early probably, ty for that. I will try what you suggested.

Now, i stopped using rupture, because of what i said, is that a problem?

Kireiray · 12/24/08, 2:03 AM

Originally Posted by Ascari

Thank you for the replies.

There are 2 lvl 80 dummies, one is heroic boss one is just lvl 80. I tested on heroic lvl 80.

Each test done was just HfB nothing else and i did this for about 200k worth of damage each time.

The reason that WP outdamages the IP a bit is because of the 50% bonus from mutilate that i get on poisoned targets.

I do refresh my HfB and SnD a bit early probably, ty for that. I will try what you suggested.

Now, i stopped using rupture, because of what i said, is that a problem?

I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but you don't have rupture factored in with trauma or mangle. Also, you don't have misery or imp ff debuff on the target, which may skew your poison results over the course of a fight. As it was said, a spreadsheet will help your theoretic dps alot more then a target dummy.