• Aldriana

I can't comment in great detail on your changes, given that you didn't describe them in much detail, but I can pretty much guarantee you that you missed some stuff. I estimate that there's going to need to be nontrivial formula adjustments in at least 10 or 15 rows, in addition to the various MH Speed/OH Speed swapping. So I'd take any numbers you come up with until I have a chance to fix things with a grain of salt.

Regarding the Mutilate bug: Row 144 is just counting IP procs; since you only have IP on one weapon, you get one proc chance per finisher without the bug, and 2 proc chances per Mutilate with it. Hence, that 2 means the bug is modeled; if you want to just straight remove the bug without switching hands on poison, just remove the 2 from lines 143 and 144.

I'd also suggest that further spreadsheet-specific discussion be moved to the appropriate spreadsheet thread.

 

Genre

Just one dagger. Damn, sometimes I amaze myself with stupidity=)

 

krzycat

I know this question probably has been answered numerous time but ive read and read and still cant figure it out.
I would like to know what im doing wrong, my current spec is 41/5/25
i have 253 hit and about 3000 ap and i im always at the bottom of the dps in naxx just above 1600 from what im told is required to even participate. Ive always been pvp so i never was concerned as much. Once again im sorry if this is the same old question but can this pve noob gets some help here plz.

 

Jankage

A few things. First, PvP gear is always lacking key stats that are strong for raiding. You can be proactive and run just a few heroics a day and get a very decent starter raid set via drops and emblem turn ins. Second, You say that you've "read and read and still cant figure it out." Did you miss the first post that this thread was founded on. In that thread it will tell you the optimal spec for what you're doing. While 41/5/25 is strong in a PvP environment you're missing out on key raid talents such as Focused Attacks, Improved Poisons, Precision, Cut to the Chase, and Hunger for Blood just to name a few of the more prominent ones.

I would try 51/13/7 and maintain a proper rotation using proper poisons. You should see dramatic improvements in your PvE contribution.

 

Fonzey

I've just had a play with my version of Vulajin spreadsheet to try and reflect this and failed miserably, so I'll wait for the pro's to do it

My Current DPS shows the following:

Precision on Gloves: 3696.95

Crusher, which is a marginal upgrade for me considering the cost is:

3699.71

The Hyperspeed Accelerators in their CURRENT form is:

3689.77

The 3.0.8 buff to them will no doubt send them surpassing both Precision and Crusher for myself, I'm really looking forward to seeing what my spreadsheet would look like with them in their new format

 

Fonzey

There isn't much more you can do when playing a prep spec like that. Spec down to HfB in a 51/13/7 spec and work on mainting a rotation involving >=4pt Ruptures and >=4pt Envenoms. (envenom ofc refreshing SnD through CttC)

That's a damn good start, download a spreadsheet and see how your gear can be tweaked to push more out of your toon

Your stats are actually competetive with mine and my limited 10man gear - and I can do 3200 on patchwerk

 

sandrilde

I've seen a few rogues mention keeping tricks of the trade buffed on each other on every cd for a pve dps increase.

Is this worth the trade off in energy (and possible cycle interruption?)

Can't seem to find much discussion of this - if it's worth doing, it might be appropriate to mention it under rotations.

 

Professor Hurt

6 seconds of 15% damage increase for 15 energy? Definitely worth it. I've used it to buff melee and ranged dps and it's never interrupted my rotation, but I also don't let it control my rotation. If TotT is off cooldown, I make sure I'm comfortable using it before clicking the button (snd up, rupture up, spare energy, etc).

There is an argument to use TotT on classes that can attack more frequently, so factor that into your decision on who you buff. For example, Rogues and hunters attack a couple times per second, every second, so they make good use of the buff. A class with, say, a 3 second spell cast may not be the best to use it on (just as an extreme example).

 

• Neto-

For what it is worth, a Hunter is a terrible Tricks choice - his pet does a very significant portion of his damage.

Trading Tricks should always be a DPS increase, however it is very slight.

 

Professor Hurt

Good point, although I wouldn't say they are a terrible choice; it depends largely on spec and pet. We have two raiding hunters and on the fights I picked out of the blue, one's pet did 36%, the other only 12%.

To add more to the discussion, there are also class specs that do more damage later in the mob's life (mages, rogues, warriors, etc), so take that into consideration as well.

 

Almehym

I've always considered it best to use TotT on a melee dps with a threat dump (can you imagine a ret pally or fury warrior with more threat getting offloaded to him?). Sometimes a range dps may be better in terms of damage, but you cannot always guarantee that they will be within 20 yards of you, and having TotT not go off and wasting time getting it on the right person is a waste of total dps when you could have just slapped it on the rogue next to you.

Anyway, I think it's best to change the person you put it on on a fight by fight basis, seeing as how some fights WILL have ranged near melee for most/all of the time, and some won't; some fights also are more melee or ranged friendly, which adds to how effective tricks can be. The one overriding principle I would go by is to keep it on people who can wipe threat unless it's a fight like 4h, where the tanks will either have a huge threat lead or will be swap-taunting such that threat will be irrelevant. It's just not a good habit to assume that you'll always be fighting bosses that will be tauntable, as taking that particular mechanic away from a boss fight can lower the margin for error a good deal (if you've ever had someone pull aggro on Sapphiron you know what I mean), and I'd expect to see much less in the way of tauntable bosses as WotLK goes on.

 

Chrisxpred

Hey mates,

In another board I recently read a post stating that gemming/enchanting +hit beyond the yellow hit cap of 99 is a loss in overall DPS. He was referring to this thread. What do you say?

 

CoroHD

Supposedly the giving TotT to a shadow priest right at the beginning of a fight gives them a respectable dps boost (say 3-5% or something like that) because they roll their shadow word: pain the entire fight and it retains its initial value.

 

• Neto-

That was the assumption some time ago. However, getting to the poison hit cap is fairly important now - not only does it give you DPS for not missing poisons, it gives you more cycle stability. At the best in slot gear, hit rating post 99 is only so slightly ahead of AP/Agility (for Mutilate); I definitely wouldn't recommend gemming straight for hit rating, for two reasons. One, with your gear, you should easily reach 237 hit rating (all you need with raid buffs) without a single pure hit rating gem, and two, if you do that and then upgrade to a piece that gives you a lot of hit, all that hit you gemmed for will lose substantial value; unlike the Agility or AP gems that you could have used. The drop from pre-poison cap to post-poison cap is pretty huge.

With that said, it's definitely beneficial to attain the poison cap; although the difference is not *that* big.

 

ekval

I wonder whats the case in spreadsheet. The poison hit cap might be rather important for Mutilate but for my Combat dropping 100 hit rating or taking away Misery hardly has any impact on DPS, even when below poison hit cap. Basically you could run with 5/5 Precision + 100 hit rating from gear without Misery and still be fine, that's how low hit rating value is for Combat (if I haven't mistaken with spreadsheet).

I know it's not possible to drop all hit rating from BiS items to AP for example, but hit rating for Combat seems really weak stat, even when miles away from poison cap. Also I signify that you should always go for highest DPS output but can we make conclusion that for Combat hit rating has no value and poison cap doesn't have almost slightest affect on DPS?

 

Naiaa

Hello, are those values true ?

Before WOTLK I remember about 2 values (caps) for PVE : 443 with 0/5 in talent Precision and 364 if you had 5/5. Those values were given for 'white hits'.

I am a bit surprised that the value with 5/5 in Precision upped to 722.

How many percent of missed 'white hits' (auto attacks) do we have when we're attacking a lvl83 mob ? Is it 45.7% (722/15.8) ?

And what does the column Poisons stand for ? Is it for 5/5 in talent Improved Poisons ?

Thx for your answers and forgive my approximate english :p

 

saedo

You appear to not understand the Rating system Blizzard has implemented. With Rating, they made it diminish in value as you level up. So yes, back at level 70, 1% hit is 15.8 rating. But at level 80, 1% hit takes about 32.89 hit rating. That's why the numbers shot up so high. Currently it is 27% for the dual wield white hit cap.

And there is a seperate column for poisons because it uses the Spell Hit mechanics, so Spell Hit Rating values for that. I believe it's around 22.8 for 1% spell hit. Also the cap is different there, at 17%.

 

Naiaa

Thank you,

my mistake, indeed it is not 15.8 as it was for lvl70 at BC but 32.79 (and not 32.89 as you mentionned). A simple division on a character sheet gave it to me.

So we have 722/32.79 = 22% of missed white hits when we attack a lvl83 boss with 5/5 in talent Precision (27% with 0/5).

Now I see there is a great debate on stopping at the "special hits" cap (99 hit score) or going further. I read somewhere that white hits (auto attack) represented more than 60% of the total hits during a fight, so it would be crazy to stop at this cap. We didn't do it at BC why would it be different now ? And especially when the white hit cap is much higher than never...

Moreover I noticed that hit bonuses on new gears tended to disappear. We find commonly haste, critic and expertise but rarely hit. It doesn't help us to be capped

 

• Aldriana

So, the thing to keep in mind is what factors made hit so important before. And the answer is, primarily, Windfury. In terms of regular autoattack damage, hit, while a perfectly reasonable stat, is nothing particularly special. What vaulted it into importance is Windfury, and to a lesser extent Sword Spec. And the reasoning is something like this:

For white damage, the amount of damage you gain depends on all the usual stats - AP, Crit, Hit, Haste, ArPen, and Expertise. A 1% increase to hit, haste, or crit each gives - to a first approximation - roughly 1% increase to white damage.

However, consider Windfury: in terms of number of procs you get, that depends on hit, haste, and expertise; in terms of how much damage they do, that depends on hit, crit, expertise, AP and ArPen. So all stats count towards increasing WF damage... but hit and expertise count twice. Thus, a 1% increase to most stats gives a 1% increase to WF damage, while a 1% increase in hit or expertise is, effectively, a 2% damage increase. Hence, for damage of this sort, hit is twice as important as other stats.

So, with WF changed to a haste effect rather than a proc-based DPS effect, hit (and expertise) become a lot less important. The scaling from 70 to 80 also hurt rating stats more than AP, so that's a further disadvantage to hit relative to other some other stats. And past that, with Prey on the Week, crit has become significantly more important for combat specs, as your crits do more damage. All of this adds up to hit being rather dramatically less important than it was at 70.

Now, the astute observer will not that the same proc mechanic now exists for poisons, and this indeed does increase the value of hit below the spell hit cap. Hence, until this value, hit does have a somewhat higher value, particularly for Mutilate builds that get something like 30% of their damage from poison procs. But for combat, poisons are less significant - Deadly, as it's not being envenomed off, does not need the hit for restacking, and wound poison accounts for only 10% of one's damage (as opposed to the 30% for Mutilate). So hit is *better* up to the spell hit cap than it is beyond, but it's still not your most important stat.

Fundamentally: it's not that hit isn't still good - it is. It still increases DPS, and it's not like you should actively items with hit on them. But by the same token, the game has changed enough since 70 that it's no longer your most important stat. Stacking hit up to the white hit cap simply no longer makes sense - you lose too many other stats by doing so. So as always, you should check the various spreadsheets and assess which of the options available to you do the most DPS, and you will generally find that this results in relatively lower values of hit than one might expect based on the situation at level 70.

 

huma

Hey, quick question. Is the envenom after-buff that increases the chance for poison to be applied something that I want to keep up as much as possible? I find myself in many situations where I have time on both SnD and Rupture, and have the choice of either energy pooling or envenoming. Most of the time however, I usually wait until 5 charges of DP are up again before I proceed to envenom. Any feedback is appreciated.

 

Krollin

This is something that can be tested using one of the Spreadsheets available in other threads here.

In case you are unable to use one though...

Testing using the Spreadsheets and experience in PvE has shown that energy pooling before using finishers is the best way of boosting your DPS.
The Envenom buff was designed to reduce the loss to DPS caused by eating DP stacks. The longer the buff runs for and the more CPs you have for Envenom the better.
A low CP Envenom with a small DP stack would be a considerable net DPS loss that cannot be compensated for by the increase in DPS from [WP: incorrect] reapplying your DP stack or IP (in the case of Mutilate).

It has been documented on this Forum that lower CP Envenoms on a [nearly] full DP stack is almost as effective as full CP Envenoms on a [nearly] full DP stack. Part of the reason for this is the way DP stacks are reduced in size after Envenom but also because of the way Envenom damage scales according to CPs and DP stack size.

I urge you to use the search facilities on this Thread if you wish to find out more about this though.

 

Raconzor

Lest misinformation spread, the poison-proc buff from envenom applies only to deadly poison and instant poison. This is one of the arguments for not using Envenom as combat, because your poisons should be wound/deadly.

 

Narumi

What is the reason for Mut hit value going to 2.2 on this guide? I still get dps loss if I switch from my 32AP gem to 16hit on Spreadsheet both buffed and unbuffed scenario. So which to trust? So far, I am leaning towards Vulajin's spreadsheet.

 

Tinwhisker

You are above the spell hit cap; hit decreased substantially in value as you crossed it. AP stayed at a constant 2.0 while hit went from 2.2 to 1.4. EP values are not constant, they will change as your gear does.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

• Neto-

That's because the EP values on the Pocket Guide are based off Aldriana's spreadsheet.