kujararanch

I just wanted to add about engineering.
When I use Hyperspeed accelerators on spreadsheet its better than crusher by 31.39 DPS
And something not mentioned, are the Saronite bombs which add 22 more dps which gives engineering by 53.39

DPS with Enchanting and Crusher: 5218
DPS with Eng Hyperspeed & bombs: 5231

Also changes to:
* Hand-Mounted Pyro Rocket now deals 1440 to 1760 Fire damage (Up from 1035 to 1265), cooldown lowered from 1 min to 45 sec.

 

zion9

correct me if im wrong, but iv been told several different times that FF or Misery doesnt affect a rogues hit period...now does that mean hit cap should be around 313 or so with 5/5 precision... how much would it take then to have 3/5 precision

 

saedo

It affects spell hit only. So our poison hit rates.

3/5 Precision without other buffs? Or with? Anyways, add 26.23 for each point of precision you're dropping.

 

Danzir

I can't see when Saronite Bombs would be useful. The time it takes to cast and throw, you could do another FoK --> which would seem, to me, do alot more damage. Unless you are literally out of energy,then do it - but with the autoattacks procing energy regen, I am not sure if that would even be feasible without energy capping. Have you tried this? If so, what are your tactics with using them?

 

kujararanch

Putting it into the rotations works just fine. I use it in that second or so I need energy for a finishing move.

 

zahariel

Generally you spend most of your time without enough energy to do anything useful (because if you had enough energy to do something, you'd do it). So, rather than just stand around and watch yourself autoattack, you might as well throw a bomb on the boss, right? I do this when I remember to, which isn't as often as it should be. Even with a very lucky string of Combat Potency procs, it's pretty tough to cap just because of the GCD caused by throwing a bomb. Note also that bombs benefit from damage-increasing buffs like the Malygos sparks or Thaddius charges, as does the rocket launcher (although the accelerators are still better for PvE).

 

doctorhay53

I have a question about the AEP rating of hit. In the section of the 'pocket guide' about AEP, above the specials cap and below the poisons cap for mutilate, hit is given a rating of 2.2. However, in the gemming section, clicking on the mutilate wowhead link for this region of hit rating shows a hit AEP of only 1.8, suggesting that I socket orange gems. Why the discrepancy? Does one of these values have more rigorous testing than the other? From what I can tell, this statement in the AEP section of the pocket guide does not agree with Aldriana's post that is referenced :

I'm assuming the values changed at some point after the original posting of the pocket guide. If the values in the pocket guide are correct, as stated by Aldriana HERE, then the wowhead links should look something like this:


Note that only the mutilate values contained discrepancies, and those were the only things I modified. I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes in the pocket guide; I'm not claiming that 'THIS SHOULD BE THE TABLE IN POST 1!!!' I'm simply saying that if I am right, then the values linked in the gemming section are incorrect. Rather than state it and tell someone else to fix it, I updated it to the best of my knowledge to save someone else the time.

If this is incorrect please let me know and I will edit this post and remove the table, to remove any possibility of confusion.

edit* Removed table to reflect 3.1 changes. See initial post of this thread.

 

Visciv

I'm just going to reiterate a few things because IMO this pocketguide is going to need a big 3.1 update very soon in regards to several factors soo..

Best combat spec is: 15/51/5
Glyphs: SS, AR/KS, Rupure/ToTT
Rotation: ~5s5r5e

Best Mutilate spec is: 51/13/7
Glyphs: HFB, Rupture/ToTT, Mutilate
Rotation: 4n4r

These are the assumptions that I've gathered from the community.

It also is currently indicated by one of the spreadsheet threads that 15/51/5 now outperforms 51/13/7. All information that I think is quite valuable no?

 

Cyllan

For combat, as your gear gets better, you can reduce the number of SS and still keep 5r/5e. (For example, with my gear - full T7, mostly BiS, I've gotten the best spreadsheet results with 3s.) For mutilate, you may want to change the notation to 4+n/e, 4+r (though it's probably not strictly necessary).

15/51/5 has outperformed 7/51/13 with BiS gear all along, it simply doesn't perform as well at lower gear levels.

You may want to include the updated poison info for the specs also.

Combat - WP/DP
Mutilate - IP/DP
HaT - (I can't recall off the top of my head)

 

Mavanas

I'd give it a few days to test what we know about 3.1 based on what we actually observe now that it goes live. Especially when it comes to dps and cycles, they have to be tested more. I personally doubt 5/5/5 is best for combat. It wasn't in 3.0.x. What is best needs more testing. Besides major contributors to rogue theorycrafting have not released their 3.1 spreadsheet versions yet, so we should wait for that too.

 

Visciv

~5 was an inference on my part that this was variable to change. I personally am getting highest DPS right now at 4/5/5 rather than 3/5/5 with pretty much choice on every gear option in 3.0.8.

The only thing I am unsure of at this point is "filler" so to speak. I see people talking about sinking filler points into things like SnD where as I cannot comprehend not having 2/2 in imp SnD and getting to the top of the tree.

 

turbare

You're combat poisons are definately out of date. Try DP/WP or even WP/WP, im sure you'll enjoy the results.

 

Cyllan

For 3.0x, you are correct, combat spec should typically be using WP/WP given a fast enough OH. However, I believe it has been suggested that WP/DP is better in 3.1. If there has been other investigation into 3.1 poison usage, I've missed it.

Since Visciv was talking about getting the pocket guide updated for 3.1, it seemed like that information was the most relevant.

 

Azumi

If you're talking about 3.1, I do believe WP/DP is the best (as far as we know from PTR) for a 15/51/5 combat spec.

 

khayman68

What is the new recommendation for Weapons and Weapon Speeds now that Poisons have been re-engineered?

I am currently MUT Spec with Dual Webbed Death. Should I be looking to switch that out my daggers ASAP or am I going to be able to sustain my DPS with that configuration?

** Is there a simple way to Macro Applying the correct Poisons to the correct Webbed Death dagger when you have Dual Webbed Deaths? Note: For those that do not know, having two of the same weapons makes applying poisons to the individual weapon a little harder.

 

Joigahdenn

I'm not sure that is entirely correct, for 3.0.x or 3.1. In the former, Mutilate seemed to be pulling higher dps with BiS gear, which is not to say combat didn't have its place, as most raid groups utilized Savage Combat, and it outperforms mutilate on *shorter* fights. In 3.1, there isn't a definitive answer yet, as neither spec has been able to be fully tested. However, the current consensus seems to be that both specs will perform within a few percent DPS of each other, differences arising mostly due to different fight mechanics.

Additionally, in quest blues and greens, Combat most certainly did out perform Mutilate for me, since a lot of that gear is pretty hit heavy (I recall losing hit at first when I hit 80 and was running heroics, then slowly having it go back up as we progressed through Naxx) and you need a good chunk of crit to be able to keep a mutilate cycle going smoothly.

 

Gahr

You could do something along the lines of

/use Instant Poison IX
/use 16

Then

/use Deadly Poison IX
/use 17

16 is mainhand slot, 17 is offhand slot

 

stedfunk

I was under the impression in 3.1 51/18/2 outperformed 51/13/7, is this not the case?

 

Cyllan

You are correct, mutilate has outperformed combat for the most part. Unfortunately, I had a major typo in my original post. I was only talking about combat specs, not Mutilate...and I appear to have misread the post I was responding to. I have edited my original post, but suffice it to say that I agree with all of your points.

To reply to stedfunk, it currently appears that 51/18/2 may outperform 51/13/7 by a small degree, but (and this is a big but) the rotation is less forgiving, and may not be worth it based on the perceived gain.

 

khayman68

Can you give the link to your source information regarding these specs? How do they Break down the 51/18/2?

 

stedfunk

it was in the 3.1 preview thread somewhere, not sure where, I am sure you can search 51/18/2 and find something. The build is basically the same as 51/13/7 you just put the points from RS into CQC and LR

 

• Aldriana

I've yet to see anything posted on these forums that makes me believe 51/18/2 is competitive. My estimates (which I have posted) say otherwise, and despite the popular myth that it's competitive, I'm not sure I've seen anyone provide numbers to support that.

For that matter, it appears to me that Mutilate is only ahead of Combat against Murderable targets, and given that it doesn't seem to scale as well it's entirely possible that by the end of Ulduar it won't be ahead even then. Though I'm admittedly less confident in my numbers regarding that, so it's possible that we will find the answer to be otherwise.

 

Sais

So is 7/51/13 Combat not better then the standard 15/51/5 Combat spec? I was under the impression that Combat spec had a greater percentage of damage come from Rupture, and that is why you specced down in Serrated Blades. Also, with the T8 4pc set bonus, where Rupture can crit, wouldn't that make taking Serrated Blades even better?

 

Lokar

I see a lot of people talking about 15/51/5 and 7/51/13, but not much talk about 18/51/2, which I only find odd because using This Spreadsheet gives me the highest possible numbers.

6618 DPS using my current gear/gems on armory with 18/51/2, double wound poison, KS/SS/Rupture Glyphs, running a 5s/5r/5e cycle. Is it just the inaccuracy of the spreadsheet, or is it correct and Ulduar gear scales to make 15/51/5 better.

Looking for some discussion .

 

• Aldriana

My estimates put 15/51/5 and 18/51/2 very very close is damage output at BIS T7 gear levels (as in, within a tenth of a percent). However, they also indicate that 15/51/5 scales better, and is thus pretty clearly ahead by mid-to-late Ulduar gear levels. I also find both to be very likely ahead of 7/51/13, though until we find out how Serrated Blades stacks with the new armor pen formula it will be challenging to say for certain.