MasterDinadan

Glyph of Adrenaline Rush is way better than Glyph of Slice and Dice.

Glyph of Slice and Dice gives at best 2 main hand attacks, 4 offhand attacks, and an average of 12 energy. every 2 minutes. This is assuming a cycle which makes full use of the glyphed SnD uptime. One could use the same cycle without the glyph and the loss would be exactly as I described. And this may not even be an ideal cycle without the glyph which means you could make this difference SMALLER.

Glyph of Adrenaline Rush gives an extra KSpree every 2 minutes, which is 5 attacks with both hands, but no energy. That's way better, and you actually gain energy most times as well when you consider the extra Adrenaline Rush. Assuming you actually use Killing Spree of course.

 

Kumar

I believe, currently the reduction of KS time with AR glyph is being treated as a bug, so when that gets fixed, glyph of SnD should be more useful.

 

Folds

Are there any other uses for KS in raid instances other than Malygos's vortex? Just curious

 

Eowyndra

I find it very useful when I have to reach a boss that is faster than me. For example at Heigan when he runs to the tank after the dance, KS will bring me to him faster than running after him. The same goes for movement fights like: Felmyst, Grobbulus, etc.

In stationary fights I use it when my energy is low for some extra dps.

 

• Neto-

This seems like the wrong thread for that, but if you used it when Archimonde air bursts you, it teleports you back, kind of like a Shadowstep; it should work on all bosses with knockback mechanics.

 

mdn

The original post states that, as a combat build, you should use Deadly Poison main hand and Wound Poison offhand; however, I've found that in both my own play and in spreadsheets, it shows higher dps with Wound Poison main hand and Deadly Poison offhand.

I'm wondering if Deadly Poison on main hand was listed because the suggested cycle included Envenom, and what the deal is now that most reports are showing Eviscerate as higher damage as a third finisher.

 

• Feist-Mok

Deadly Poison on the offhand pulls ahead in some sword builds because sword spec will allow for more poison procs from the mainhand - especially if the offhand sword is kinda slow (as most Naxx OH swords are).

This is the exception, not the rule.

 

Kumar

I think the main post needs a clarifiaction on this, because the only time I see Deadly/Wound greater than Wound/Deadly is with 1.4 speed and lower weapons, which at this moment are only daggers.

 

schnaxine

I already sent a private message to Cally pointing him to my post on WoW (en) forums - Rogue discussion where I posted detailed spreadsheet results (posts 0 and 6) about combat poisons interacting with weapon specialization and weapon speeds.

 

evolart

With this 2s/5r cycle you guys are suggesting (spreadsheet seems to confirm dps increase) I assume you would not want to use the Rupture Glyph since there will be a lot of specials downtime right? Won't I have to sit there waiting for rupture to finish ticking down and pretty much do nothing until Rupture is clear and then reapply? I must be confused about something.

I've been using 5s/5r/5e.

 

xvvx01

You can use the spreadsheet to turn the glyph on and off or using a separate glyph would be an upgrade.

 

evolart

Am I reading the cycle correct? Do people just white damage after the 5 r and then 2 s?

 

Azsh

The one advantage would be on fights where you frequently have to get away from the boss then come back, ie. you are disengaged for long enough to fill back up to 120.

I would guess that these fights are few and far between enough that 1% crit or the last 20% of relentless would be far more valuable.

Great for pvp when you can restealth though. =)

 

ekval

Value of Vigor has been under of discussion a lot and it is not worth to spec for when thinking about PvE damage. In some cases rule can be excluded for Mutilate because lack of real glyphs.

 

Almehym

That statement makes no sense to me. There are many better places to put even one point than in Vigor, and the glyph doesn't make the talent any better. I would rather use an Eviscerate glyph on the random off chance that my SnD is running out and I have CP on my target but not any poisons for whatever reason. That way I get some benefit from my third glyph and don't lose dps by wasting a talent point.

 

ekval

That's why I said in some cases people might want to use Glyph of Vigor + Vigor for Mutilate, because Glyph of Eviscerate is hardly useful for Mutilate. Like I stated, Vigor is not good PvE damage talent but I can see some people wanting Fleet Footed or Quick Recovery + Vigor over TtT for example. For Combat builds Vigor talent doesn't offer anything even possibly viable due there is other much better Glyphs.

"...and the glyph doesn't make the talent any better" is simply wrong because Glyph of Vigor doubles the effect of Vigor talent gives.

 

Almehym

My point is that because Vigor is such a lackluster PvE talent, no PvE specced rogue should be taking it in the first place. I'd wager that in the vast majority of cases, even if you were to drop MP or TtT for points in QR or FF, it'd still be better to put the third point in whichever of those latter two talents you didn't max out than to get Vigor. I worded my statement wrong when I said that the glyph doesn't make the talent better; what I meant to say is that the glyph is worthless because you shouldn't be taking the talent in the first place.

I agree that Glyph of Eviscerate is very marginally useful for Mutilate, but in those cases where you'll be off target and back on in some span of time, if you are in the situation where your SnD is running out but your DP stack has already fallen off because you had to run off your target, it would be better to Eviscerate than to hit SnD, since no matter how many CP you have on the target, you'll end up with a 5cp SnD running as well as whatever damage you get from your (10% higher chance to crit) Eviscerate. So while the damage you get from the extra 20 energy due to a glyphed Vigor might potentially be more on that particular run in, I would certainly wager that the sustained damage lost from not taking a better dps talent over the entire fight would vastly make up for it. I don't know how one would calculate such a thing, but basing this off of the previously stated dps increases for certain talents, it seems like a reasonable assertion.

 

Demi9OD

With the bugged 15% crit on Master Poisoner you should probably be running SnD, Rupture, and Evisc glyphs, and using Evisc as your finisher for increased 5DP stack up time for raid DPS. Until they fix it.

 

Lieto

Greetings,

I am new to the mutilate raiding and to wotlk so got few general questions + question concerning mixing some points around (talking about standard 51/13/7)
1. 5/5 Relentless over 5/5 Close quarter combat? Does extra chance on RS really better then 2% extra crit?
2. 3/3 Master poisoner worth ±nothing if your raid has DK or retri, right? Any other classes?
3. Any use to put 1 or 2 points into improved SnD instead of 5/5 precision? Might allow for an extra finisher here and there, no?
4. 51/7/13 <<< 51/13/7. Anyone has any estimation concerning dps difference of this 2 spec?

Thanks in advance.

 

drumbum

Looking over at the hunter forums, there is considerable evidence suggesting that the physical miss rate against boss mobs is 8%, not 9%. A post from the druid forums seems to agree with this figure as well. I think it's very likely that the hit rating caps previously believed to be correct (and which are included in the first post of this thread) are in fact incorrect.

For now it's not a huge deal, as the correct values are probably only 1-2% off, but I just wanted to make sure everyone is aware of this discrepancy. I'll try to run some tests to also test dual wield and poison miss rate against the test dummies when the servers are back up.

 

Echophantom

1. Absolutely. With RS, Rupture costs nothing, Envenoms/Eviscerates cost 10 energy, etc. It provides much, much more energy (and thus much greater damage) than 2% crit will.

2. Once the hotfixes go through, MP doesn't stack with ret paladins or elemental shamans.

3. No, not really. Since every time you Envenom/Eviscerate you are refreshing SnD, the only thing more time on SnD would do is gives you more leniency to do it in. More leniency != better damage.

4. Spreadsheet it.

 

Arriana

Thanks for this, Cally - very helpful, and in fact, enlightening.

One question: the fact that putting a fast dagger in your MH leads to increased dps for Mutilate really requires a paradigm shift and goes completely against the way rogue mechanics have worked over the last 4 years (instant attacks want highest range and, therefore, slow weapons). Does anyone foresee Blizzard making changes to, say, the way poisons work etc. in order to get rogues back to using slow daggers in the MH? It seems like they'll either need to do that, or give us more fast daggers that we can use in the MH. Looking at the available daggers in game right now, I have a feeling that Blizzard isn't quite realizing how the buff to poisons has actually affected our dps.

 

sdwwraith

Awesome resource. Very much appreciated!

One thing I noticed is assault to rings (+32AP each) for enchanters seems to be missing from the 'Enchants' section.

 

Yuna

I would be very happy, if someone could make a statement about the Weapon Speeds in more detail.For example when one dagger is 0,5 sek.slower, but have 26 dps more on it, which of the daggers is better.

 

sephfiroth

http://shadowpanther.net/weapons-pve.htm

There is a section for MH, and a section for OH.

It weighs the speed, as well as the stats/DPS of the weapons too.

heres the link for just daggers

http://shadowpanther.net/daggers.htm