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12/12/09, 8:34 PM
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#1486
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Mike Tyson
Night Elf Rogue
Doomhammer
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I should clarify that the point is not waiting for the sake of waiting; the point is to maximize envenom buff uptime. So, if you have enough energy/CP for an envenom and the buff from the last one has dropped, you can (and should!) envenom immediately. But if the previous envenom has *not* dropped, and you can wait a few seconds (until it does) without capping out on energy, doing so will generally be a DPS increase.
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12/13/09, 4:33 PM
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#1487
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Rogue
Bladefist
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Originally Posted by Aldriana
I should clarify that the point is not waiting for the sake of waiting; the point is to maximize envenom buff uptime. So, if you have enough energy/CP for an envenom and the buff from the last one has dropped, you can (and should!) envenom immediately. But if the previous envenom has *not* dropped, and you can wait a few seconds (until it does) without capping out on energy, doing so will generally be a DPS increase.
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Along the lines of energy pooling, has anyone modeled whether transferring a point from Fleet Footed to Vigor would increase DPS by allowing increased energy pooling, leading to increased envenom uptime? As gear level increases, I would imagine that our energy regen rate will also continue to increase due to increased haste and crit, potentially making this more of an issue at higher gear levels.
I believe someone asked this question a few days ago on one of the threads, but I never saw an answer.
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12/13/09, 4:57 PM
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#1488
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Rogue
Spinebreaker (EU)
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Originally Posted by Kerfax
Along the lines of energy pooling, has anyone modeled whether transferring a point from Fleet Footed to Vigor would increase DPS by allowing increased energy pooling, leading to increased envenom uptime? As gear level increases, I would imagine that our energy regen rate will also continue to increase due to increased haste and crit, potentially making this more of an issue at higher gear levels.
I believe someone asked this question a few days ago on one of the threads, but I never saw an answer.
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It makes sense to me, in ICC as a muti rogue i have found myself capping on energy before the envenom buff is gone and had to clip it to not get capped on energy.
I guess its especially true during bloodlust/heroism, haste pot or just in case of lucky crits.
(Also i was wondering if there is any EP numbers on the buff from the dagger yet? Trying to plan out where i'm spending my gear points. Just some speculation: At higher haste lvls the proc is worth less because of energy regain will be higher and you can manage 100% on envenom buff)
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12/15/09, 7:59 PM
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#1489
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Glass Joe
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Glyph of Slice and Dice should be added to the combat glyphs, it's if not better, a sidegrade to Glyph of Eviscerate in 3.3 since our Evisces do less damage now because of the 20/51/0 specc. For me they both come in within 0,05% dps of each other (RNG) in Mavanas' Simulation Spreadsheet.
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12/16/09, 1:48 AM
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#1490
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Glass Joe
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What is the best within 20/51/00 spec : 3pts in ruthelssness and 2 pts in improved eviscerate or 2pts in ruthelssness and 3 pts in improved eviscerate.
In my opinion, the first one is a little bit better but I'm not sure. Moreoever Aldriana and Mavanas seem not to agree each other with that.
Aldriana : 2pts in ruthelssness and 3 pts in improved eviscerate
Mavanas : 3pts in ruthelssness and 2 pts in improved eviscerate
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12/16/09, 2:19 AM
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#1491
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Great Tiger
Night Elf Rogue
Lightning's Blade
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Did you run the simsheet to determine that? If you are just looking at the combat preset in the simsheet and my own offspec, I did not have time to test it myself, but I was guessing the difference between the two options was really small.
3pt ruthlessness probably has slightly more stable cycles, and I do not think variations in cycles and dps loss related to that type of rng is modeled in a calcsheet as well as in a simsheet. There is too much averaging going in a calcsheet, such as Aldriana's, before the final steps of dps calculation, so a lot of that rng is dissolved. Not saying it is a big effect, most likely it is very small, but if I were to guess the direction of the miscalculation, anything that improves the stability of a cycle would be slightly undervalued in the calcsheet.
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12/16/09, 2:59 AM
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#1492
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Mike Tyson
Night Elf Rogue
Doomhammer
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I think you may underestimate the sophistication of the modeling in the more recent versions of my sheet, which actually does account for some things like cycle stability and energy pooling. More to the point, I don't see how 2/3 vs 3/3 Ruthlessness makes any difference in terms of cycle stability. Cycle stability is a function of having predictable outcomes from moves - having the same thing happen each time you do stuff. And regardless of which outcome you pick, there's a 60/40 split between the possible outcomes - 60% of the time one thing happens, and 40% something else happens. Neither is fundamentally more predictable - and thus stable - than the other. Realistically, it's just a function of more eviscerates vs slightly larger eviscerates.
And personally, quite apart from what the sheet(s) say about the marginal damage difference in this case, I'd advocate for 3/3 Imp Evis, due to providing better burst on short-lived targets that you may not land more than one finisher on anyway. But ultimately, it's whatever you find works best for you - both are reasonable options.
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12/16/09, 3:18 AM
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#1493
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Rogue
Stormreaver (EU)
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I have tested using black magic on a 3rd dagger and swapping it with 2 macros. I've been wondering if this actually decreases my dps if i use the weapon swap just before a MH swing? It usually procs in 2secs and currently gives me 8% haste for 10secs.
Also, I am currently using vigor and glyph of vigor (until i get 2p of t10, when i most likely change to glyph of tott). In fights like deathwhisper i find this more handy than 2/2 fleet footed. Also sometimes good chain procs of ruthlessness and crits from mutilate makes my energy pool up to 100+ if I try to maintain envenom buff as much as possible.
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12/16/09, 1:12 PM
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#1494
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Great Tiger
Night Elf Rogue
Lightning's Blade
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Ruthlessness RNG is not what I was referring to. The RNG I had in mind is due to sinister strike glyph. If you had 100% ruthlessness chance and only had to build up 4 combo points before a finisher, the variance of energy required to build that cycle would be less than the variance of energy required to build a cycle when ruthlessness chance was 0% and you needed to do up to 5 sinister strikes. So the closer you get to 100% ruthlessness the lower is the variance in the cycle length, which is why I said 3/3 is lower RNG.
As for modeling, I know you changed it and you mentioned some sort of action queues before, but I do not think you are modeling each possible sequence of events, otherwise it would just turn into a simulation. Until you write out the probability of each possible sequence of actions and corresponding dps and only average at the very end, you won't be able to properly account for all possible rng. It's just not feasible in a calcsheet. But like I said, I do not think the effects we are talking about are big and predictable, and resorting to averaging at an earlier step in dps calculation is sufficient given the accuracy required of dps spreadsheets. Nonetheless, simsheet by design is better prepared to model that type of RNG.
Last edited by Mavanas : 12/16/09 at 6:53 PM.
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12/17/09, 9:01 PM
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#1495
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Glass Joe
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Atm i have 680 haste, and i been noticing that i can get around .5sec on my main hand, but i cant get below this speed. I was wondering is there was a set amount of haste that it get diminishing returns. Oh and also I'm using the basic assassin spec (51/13/7) atm just because i prefer it over the new one for maximizing envenom up time, but the question stays the same.
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12/18/09, 2:35 AM
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#1496
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Glass Joe
Human Rogue
Bronzebeard (EU)
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I managed to get my hands on a second Heartpierce on Wednesday and I can confirm that the proc will not stack with itself and dual wielding them will simply result in a higher uptime on a single Invigoration buff, although obviously the benefits of dual wielding even if the buff stacked would be outweighed by the fact that they're both 1.8 speed.
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12/18/09, 3:37 AM
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#1497
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Asøme
Atm i have 680 haste, and i been noticing that i can get around .5sec on my main hand, but i cant get below this speed. I was wondering is there was a set amount of haste that it get diminishing returns. Oh and also I'm using the basic assassin spec (51/13/7) atm just because i prefer it over the new one for maximizing envenom up time, but the question stays the same.
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With 685 Haste Rating, during BL while popping a Haste pot and using the Troll Racial, I can get my MH attack speed down to about .4sec quite easily, so there is no DR on haste that I can tell.
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12/18/09, 1:10 PM
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#1498
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Asøme
Atm i have 680 haste, and i been noticing that i can get around .5sec on my main hand, but i cant get below this speed. I was wondering is there was a set amount of haste that it get diminishing returns. Oh and also I'm using the basic assassin spec (51/13/7) atm just because i prefer it over the new one for maximizing envenom up time, but the question stays the same.
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During Bloodlust+Shard of the Crystal Heart + Speed Potions I saw a .38 speed on my OH, I don't believe there should be a theoretical minimum.
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12/19/09, 3:37 AM
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#1499
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Glass Joe
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Quick question:
Maybe I'm not understanding the gist here, but if Agil is 1.94 EP, why aren't we gemming Agil / Agil + Haste as opposed to AP / AP + Haste?
- S
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12/19/09, 3:41 AM
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#1500
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Rogue
Frostmane (EU)
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Originally Posted by Shikaro
Maybe I'm not understanding the gist here, but if Agil is 1.94 EP, why aren't we gemming Agil / Agil + Haste as opposed to AP / AP + Haste?
- S
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Because AP is 1 EP and for every 1 agi you get 2 ap on a gem. So socketing AP gets you 2 EP instead of 1.94 EP. Next to that Agi gives crit and with the troubles we will have staying under the crit cap you are better off using AP anyways. So using AP with these values is a win-win situation.
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