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Old 12/23/09, 6:04 PM   #1516
Sculduggery
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Rogue
 
Bleeding Hollow
All of the instances you reference as giving an opportunity to take advantage of Fleet Footed are also opportunities for energy to cap. Leaving one point off of FF in order to take Vigor still gives you an 8% movement rate increase (the same as boot enchants) in addition to 10 more energy on sweep (jormongurs), massive crash (icehowl), fears/CCs (champs), scarabs (anub), whirlwind (marrowgar), adherent (deathwisper), or the sub-zero mage (gunship). Try to compensate by utilising Sprint more.

On Jaraxxus, movement to portals and volcanoes is very minimal. They practically spawn within melee range of the boss and the short travel time seems hardly long enough to warrant an investment of two whole talent points. I'm thinking we do twins different, though, because we stack them up and don't rotate auras throughout the fight, making a zero movement fight and pooling energy for the burst phases would absolutely give Vigor preference over FF.

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Old 12/23/09, 7:34 PM   #1517
lubricious
Glass Joe
 
lubricious's Avatar
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Medivh
The problem with the vigor vs. FF argument is that there is no set answer. RNG situations can occur in a variety of fights that can make FF vastly superior to vigor--not because of 'time on target' in and of itself, but rather being able to hit the target at a critical moment or even avoid death.

However it's also entirely possible that you'll raid the whole night and not find yourself in a situation that justifies the extra speed, and you'd have been better off with a higher energy cap.

So let's just call it what it is; a personal preference. Use whichever fits your raids/playstyle best.

There are some things that just can't be reduced to simple numbers.

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Old 12/24/09, 12:21 AM   #1518
Banedon
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Gul'dan
Originally Posted by Sculduggery View Post
All of the instances you reference as giving an opportunity to take advantage of Fleet Footed are also opportunities for energy to cap. Leaving one point off of FF in order to take Vigor still gives you an 8% movement rate increase (the same as boot enchants) in addition to 10 more energy on sweep (jormongurs), massive crash (icehowl), fears/CCs (champs), scarabs (anub), whirlwind (marrowgar), adherent (deathwisper), or the sub-zero mage (gunship). Try to compensate by utilising Sprint more.
You've mentioned having 10 extra energy a couple of times, but if you're willing to consider using a talent point on vigor, you should also probably consider glyphing for it and making it an extra 20 energy.

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Old 12/24/09, 2:02 AM   #1519
Towelette
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Suramar
Originally Posted by Banedon View Post
You've mentioned having 10 extra energy a couple of times, but if you're willing to consider using a talent point on vigor, you should also probably consider glyphing for it and making it an extra 20 energy.
I doubt the extra pooling 20 energy provides would outweigh the rDPS gain of glyphed Tricks.

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Old 12/24/09, 2:27 PM   #1520
Baudz
Piston Honda
 
Orc Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
delete

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Old 12/24/09, 2:35 PM   #1521
sltyntzhrt
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Shattered Hand
Is there a point where 23 haste enchant to cloak would outweigh 22 agility to cloak?

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Old 12/24/09, 2:43 PM   #1522
Mavanas
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Lightning's Blade
It's true for both combat and mutilate for all gear I've tested. Agility scores below AP and haste is slightly ahead of AP and definitely ahead of agility.

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Old 12/24/09, 6:59 PM   #1523
Slayer101
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by Mavanas View Post
It's true for both combat and mutilate for all gear I've tested. Agility scores below AP and haste is slightly ahead of AP and definitely ahead of agility.
Hmmm.. I have good gear for both Mutilate and Combat and Agil is still better on Cloak than haste.. though nearly even.

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Old 12/24/09, 8:24 PM   #1524
Mavanas
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Lightning's Blade
It can happen, I was not talking about all possible gear sets. Also if you are using Aldriana's spreadsheet, there might be a different valuation of agility or haste there as well. I was referring to the simsheet in my post.

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Old 12/24/09, 9:12 PM   #1525
Halbarad
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Slayer101 View Post
Hmmm.. I have good gear for both Mutilate and Combat and Agil is still better on Cloak than haste.. though nearly even.
As Mavanas said, it can happen, and has happend for me.
But as you mentioned its still close, as per the below EP;

Mutilate
Agility 1.95
Crit 1.77
White Hit 1.88
Spell Hit 3.23
Haste 1.99


As stated in a previous post, Hit, Haste and AP are closely tied together, increasing or decreasing one changes the value of the others.

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Old 12/26/09, 8:29 AM   #1526
Ivanvenove
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Azralon
That's the crit cap's formula:

"Critical Strike Cap

Crit Cap = 100% - 24% glancing blows - X% dodge chance - X% miss chance

where X% dodge chance is determined by expertise rating and X% miss chance is determined by hit rating.

Note: 4.8% of critical strikes are converted to normal hits after the above cap."

Crit Cap: 100% -24%glancing blows - 26%dodge chance -9,76%miss chance = 40,24% I need of critical strike rating. At moment I have 43,70% and a DMC: Greatness proc who gives me +-4% critical strike rating, also in my currently gear I haven't no agility gems and enchants, I got the expertise cap and have gemmed the another slots with AP/AP+Haste. So my question about this formula is it correctly? When I have critical strike rating above the cap and can't lower it, is this ok?

Im asking it, because I have did this same math looking the armory of Aldriana and another rogues and got a different result.

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Old 12/26/09, 8:46 AM   #1527
korner
Von Kaiser
 
korner's Avatar
 
Troll Rogue
 
Азурегос (EU)
Originally Posted by Ivanoize View Post
That's the crit cap's formula:

"Critical Strike Cap

Crit Cap = 100% - 24% glancing blows - X% dodge chance - X% miss chance

where X% dodge chance is determined by expertise rating and X% miss chance is determined by hit rating.

Note: 4.8% of critical strikes are converted to normal hits after the above cap."

Crit Cap: 100% -24%glancing blows - 26%dodge chance -9,76%miss chance = 40,24% I need of critical strike rating. At moment I have 43,70% and a DMC: Greatness proc who gives me +-4% critical strike rating, also in my currently gear I haven't no agility gems and enchants, I got the expertise cap and have gemmed the another slots with AP/AP+Haste. So my question about this formula is it correctly? When I have critical strike rating above the cap and can't lower it, is this ok?

Im asking it, because I have did this same math looking the armory of Aldriana and another rogues and got a different result.

That should be not your character dodge chance, but targets dodge chance, which is max. 6.5% and is lowered by your expertise.

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Old 12/26/09, 9:09 AM   #1528
Ivanvenove
Von Kaiser
 
Ivanvenove's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Azralon
Originally Posted by korner View Post
That should be not your character dodge chance, but targets dodge chance, which is max. 6.5% and is lowered by your expertise.
And it's my expertise, 26, or I lower it based on 6,5%?

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Old 12/26/09, 9:25 AM   #1529
Earwen
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Ivanoize View Post
And it's my expertise, 26, or I lower it based on 6,5%?
If your expertise is 26, it means you lower your crit cap by 0%.

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Old 12/26/09, 9:41 AM   #1530
Ivanvenove
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Azralon
The question is in the math for crit cap, I substract from the 100% as expertise capped -26 or -6.5%?

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