Pocket Guide to WOTLK (Updated for 3.3) - Page 105

Leahlia · 01/20/10, 8:39 PM

I see malvanas in his dps spread sheet summary says to pool 60 energey for combat.. i was jsut wondering why?

ivanbss · 01/23/10, 4:44 PM

Is the EP value for DbW still the same ? since now he procs Haste instead of ArP.

[Deathbringer's Will] 652 493

stickychu · 01/23/10, 8:59 PM

anyway we can get an update on the trinket section of this guide? now that tiny abom has been figured out.

Zxian · 01/25/10, 1:47 PM

Would someone be able to help me understand conceptually why the value of Agi increases as we get better gear? My guess is that as we acquire more hit rating, more white hits land. As more white hits land, the melee crit benefit from Agi begins to exceed the AP bonus to poisons (basically shifting the breakdown of our damage more towards white damage).

Am I somewhere close to the mark, or way out there in la-la-land?

• Aldriana · 01/25/10, 2:22 PM

Briefly stated: as gear improves, all your stats increase. Each stat increases the absolute DPS gain of some or all of the other stats (i.e., the more AP you have, the more damage you gain from a point of crit, hit, haste, ArPen, expertise, or agility). It so happens that the rate at which AP increases the value of the other stats tends to be faster than the rate at which the other stats increase the value of AP; hence, since EP values are normalized such that AP=1, the EP values of all other stats tend to generally increase as gear improves.

Plesner · 02/05/10, 10:04 AM

Just a quick question, that I haven't been able to find the answer for using the search function.

Does Ep values for crit and agi (those in the first post) (for mutilate) take 3/3 Focused into account?

Above removed because of unclear wording:

What I meant was, if that was unclear was:

When calculating the EP value for agi / crit, was the 2 energy gained on crit from focused attacks, factored in, or is the ep value "only" the direct dmg increase...?

Feist-Mok · 02/05/10, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by Plesner

Above removed because of unclear wording:

What I meant was, if that was unclear was:

When calculating the EP value for agi / crit, was the 2 energy gained on crit from focused attacks, factored in, or is the ep value "only" the direct dmg increase...?

EP values are derived from the various spreadsheet models found on these forums for the most part. Yes, they factor in all talents and most buffs.

Jeepaholic · 02/05/10, 10:46 AM

I have two questions I'm stuck in search of and still have yet to find a conclusion.

1) After recently downloading the latest sheet, with a few changes of gear in between the change. I notice EP Value of haste has gone up and is being suggested in almost every socket over AP or AP/Haste. Was the EP Value of haste changed or is it all because of my gear? I am no where near full BIS so I have a hard time believing gemming haste will result in higher dps.

2) Many say energy pooling even with vigor+ glyph isn't worth using due to risks of caping energy. Is this still the case?

Thanks and I appreciate the work you put into these questions and spreadsheets.

Special K 554 · 02/06/10, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by iced1138

Please forgive me if this has been asked or will cause in infraction. But, is it plausable for putting rupture back into the mut rotation since the nerfs? I've never figured out how to work the spreadsheets, otherwise I would have tried it there.

No, it's not. *perhaps* if you had tier 8 so it can crit, but I doubt even then. (And I'm assuming you have at least tier 9 from triumph emblems)

For mutilate, envenom just doesn't do damage in one hit, it also increases your poison proc chance a lot and refreshes SND. Not to mention, Rupture scales with only one thing, Attack Power. Arp, Haste, Crit, Hit -> all of it worthless for rupture.

Safiyania · 02/08/10, 7:27 PM

Originally Posted by Jeepaholic

I have two questions I'm stuck in search of and still have yet to find a conclusion.

1) After recently downloading the latest sheet, with a few changes of gear in between the change. I notice EP Value of haste has gone up and is being suggested in almost every socket over AP or AP/Haste. Was the EP Value of haste changed or is it all because of my gear? I am no where near full BIS so I have a hard time believing gemming haste will result in higher dps.

2) Many say energy pooling even with vigor+ glyph isn't worth using due to risks of caping energy. Is this still the case?

Thanks and I appreciate the work you put into these questions and spreadsheets.

1) The quick and dirty answer is that the change to deadly poison pushes up the value of haste for both combat and mutilate specs, though just how valuable that haste is relative to other stats really depends on your gear and it is not unusual to see recommended gems change frequently as you make changes to the gear setup in the spreadsheet. Also keep in mind that the sheet isn't trying to optimize all slots simultaneously, but on a one-by-one basis. Changing an AP/Haste gem to Haste could result in little to no actual change in dps estimate but can swing the recommendation back to AP/Haste. It's all in the ratios of your stats relative to each other.

2) The better question is why are you using vigor and the glyph when from a raiding standpoint Fleet Footed and a glyph of Tricks of the Trade will generate better personal dps and raid dps in virtually every conceivable set of circumstances (assuming you are raiding as mutilate). Energy Pooling was at least of arguable value in finisher rotations that included rupture along with eviscerate/envenom as a hedge against bouts of bad RNG. Now that Rupture is on the shelf we are no longer trying to squeeze some maximum number of eviscerates/envenoms between SnD/Rupure refreshes for combat spec (where pooling was of debatable value all along). Mutilate it is a dps loss to clip your envenom buff with early refreshes so you will often be pooling energy while you wait for the envenom buff to end while sitting on 4-5 CPs, but it is essentially pointless to pool beyond what is needed to perform a finisher deliberately unless there is an upcoming event that requires a sudden burst of damage.

Towelette · 02/09/10, 3:53 AM

Originally Posted by Safiyania

2) The better question is why are you using vigor and the glyph when from a raiding standpoint Fleet Footed and a glyph of Tricks of the Trade will generate better personal dps and raid dps in virtually every conceivable set of circumstances (assuming you are raiding as mutilate). Energy Pooling was at least of arguable value in finisher rotations that included rupture along with eviscerate/envenom as a hedge against bouts of bad RNG. Now that Rupture is on the shelf we are no longer trying to squeeze some maximum number of eviscerates/envenoms between SnD/Rupure refreshes for combat spec (where pooling was of debatable value all along). Mutilate it is a dps loss to clip your envenom buff with early refreshes so you will often be pooling energy while you wait for the envenom buff to end while sitting on 4-5 CPs, but it is essentially pointless to pool beyond what is needed to perform a finisher deliberately unless there is an upcoming event that requires a sudden burst of damage.

Well, he kind of got it backwards is the issue. While it is true that the Tricks glyph will bring more rDPS than the Vigor glyph, the notion of switching one point out of Fleet Footed into Vigor has been brought up with Rogues that are running with Heartpierce and the T10 set bonuses. The energy regen isn't constantly crazy, but it can be with the right order of procs, which isn't what I'd call uncommon. The 4pc proc can force you to pretty severely clip its Envenom due to energy cap problems, as well.

However, I don't recall ever seeing any math on the difference between the two options. If anyone else has, please do PM a link to me. Having 2pc and a HP myself, I'm really interested in the subject.

Mavanas · 02/09/10, 10:01 AM

If you use mutilate for interrupted fights instead of using a combat offspec, then there is little justification for ever using vigor over even one point of Fleet Footed. The effect of vigor even when glyphed is nomore than 70 dps with Heartbreaker. There has been a discussion of that in the simsheet thread and you can check what the latest estimate is based on the most recent version. I have not checked it in a while, but it's possible that after removing energy pooling, the effect of vigor is significantly reduced. At the same time, Fleet Footed has an effect of 200 dps and more on your dps for some interrupted fights.

superfly75 · 02/13/10, 6:34 PM

Okay thanks. A second thought, could two points into remorseless attacks increase overall dps more then two points into fleet footed?

Xaoc · 02/13/10, 6:55 PM

The spreadsheets are designed and modeled for boss fights. Remorseless is only (barely) useful for trash, and has extremely little use on bosses. LDW, Gunship, Putricide, Dreamwalker, and LK are the only fights where it could be used, and of those fights, having an increased movement speed is also greatly beneficial, far more so in some cases.

Devistate · 03/09/10, 6:24 PM

I'm sure this has probably been answered somewhere on here, so forgive me for asking it, but right now my guild has an arms warrior, and I am geared entirely for combat with little to no assassination gear, I was just wondering if there was any reason for me to stay combat as my mainspec. I always thought that it was more of a raid dps loss to bring an arms warrior than it was to bring a combat rogue, but he disagreed, and I really don't have anything to back up my argument with, because I don't know a damn thing about warriors really.

I know it's a bad example, because of all of the aoeing involved in the fight, but I noticed I was outdpsing the other rogue and the arms warrior on our Lich King 25 attempts, so it would seem being combat for that fight may not be a terrible idea?

Any insight on this would be great.

If I had a muti set, I wouldn't mind respeccing for some fights, as I do know it's better, but I have like none and my guild is 11/12 ICC 25, so basically my question is, should I stay combat? Or should I try my ass off to get weapons, gear, gems, and trinkets for a mutilate spec and only spec combat for some fights?