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Old 12/06/08, 7:52 PM   #181
Bues
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Muradin
Originally Posted by jorysaywut View Post
On what basis are you assuming the latter gems would give more DPS? I don't know about your gear set but whether I'm Combat or Mut; AP tends to be the stat to stack assuming I have enough expertise. This assumption is based on the spreadsheet, which you should be using to make these decisions. If you're not using the spreadsheet, where is your evidence showing these gems to be superior?
I'm not sure where I was getting it from on my spreadsheet, but it was probably before I fully configured it to my spec and settings. Disregard my post, sorry.

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Old 12/07/08, 6:06 PM   #182
Paxs
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Shadowmoon
ignorant question and i probably know the answer but tbh i'm unsure, should Cold Blood be used w/ Envenom or Mutilate? I know Mutilate is 2 separate attacks that both would crit just curious. thanks in advanced

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Old 12/08/08, 2:46 AM   #183
Sirian
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Emerald Dream (EU)
Originally Posted by Paxs View Post
ignorant question and i probably know the answer but tbh i'm unsure, should Cold Blood be used w/ Envenom or Mutilate? I know Mutilate is 2 separate attacks that both would crit just curious. thanks in advanced
Using Cold Blood with make both hands crit when you use mutilate, thats pretty much what I use it on since I get ~3.2k crit with each hand when in a raid (10 man).

My envenom crits sometimes creep into the 7k bracket but seems to depend which classes are present (ie what debuffs are on the mob and if they increase spell dmg taken)

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Old 12/08/08, 3:22 AM   #184
Feist-Mok
Im***est.
 
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Human Rogue
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by Paxs View Post
ignorant question and i probably know the answer but tbh i'm unsure, should Cold Blood be used w/ Envenom or Mutilate? I know Mutilate is 2 separate attacks that both would crit just curious. thanks in advanced
The DPS difference is minimal considering Cold Blood's long cooldown. I'd encourage you to use it instead to maintain cycle stability - it guarantees an extra CP on mutilate, which is handy if ruthlessness fails to proc when you want it to - or to increase the burst threat of a ToT to your tank.

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Old 12/09/08, 10:36 AM   #185
Darkwyng
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Eldre'Thalas
Originally Posted by Paxs View Post
ignorant question and i probably know the answer but tbh i'm unsure, should Cold Blood be used w/ Envenom or Mutilate? I know Mutilate is 2 separate attacks that both would crit just curious. thanks in advanced
Personally, just for fun and to keep up with the hunters, I'll save Cold Blood and pair it with Fan of Knives on trash Won't leave a bruise and it'll let 'em know who's boss...there's NOOOO doubt about it

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Old 12/09/08, 12:03 PM   #186
Cally
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Terokkar
Updated hit cap table due to evidence that the specials hit cap is reduced from 9% to 8%.

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Old 12/09/08, 3:31 PM   #187
Kytrarewn
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Kytrarewn
Undead Rogue
 
No WoW Account
I might need to reconsider this since getting Sinister Revenge last night, but my envenoms can crit for upwards of 10k, and my mutilates hit extremely weakly, since I had been using Webbed Death MH with Librarian's Paper Cutter OH. With Sinister Revenge, that may change upward. I haven't really been having that much difficulty maintaining a cycle with or without ruthlesness procs, and since Mutilate has +15% chance to crit anyway (bringing it to >=~50% chance raidbuffed, or 75% chance for one of two hands to proc on the attack, granting me 3CP anyway), it might not be 'that' necessary.

Again though, that may well change once I get 4pc Bonescythe and/or lose my Slayer's bonus, as well as having fewer 'crits per second" with Sinister Revenge rather than the paper-cutter.

On another note, even with the 1.3 offhand and a 1.4 mainhand, I tended to find myself "poison-starved" occasionally when it came to envenom while using Deadly on my main-hand and instant on my offhand, at least for the purposes of Envenom. Might well be worth looking into further, but with Deadly on a 1.8 mainhand, I can anticipate those issues being worse yet.

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Old 12/09/08, 4:04 PM   #188
Murr
Piston Honda
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Dark Iron
Originally Posted by Kytrarewn View Post
I might need to reconsider this since getting Sinister Revenge last night, but my envenoms can crit for upwards of 10k, and my mutilates hit extremely weakly, since I had been using Webbed Death MH with Librarian's Paper Cutter OH. With Sinister Revenge, that may change upward. I haven't really been having that much difficulty maintaining a cycle with or without ruthlesness procs, and since Mutilate has +15% chance to crit anyway (bringing it to >=~50% chance raidbuffed, or 75% chance for one of two hands to proc on the attack, granting me 3CP anyway), it might not be 'that' necessary.

Again though, that may well change once I get 4pc Bonescythe and/or lose my Slayer's bonus, as well as having fewer 'crits per second" with Sinister Revenge rather than the paper-cutter.

On another note, even with the 1.3 offhand and a 1.4 mainhand, I tended to find myself "poison-starved" occasionally when it came to envenom while using Deadly on my main-hand and instant on my offhand, at least for the purposes of Envenom. Might well be worth looking into further, but with Deadly on a 1.8 mainhand, I can anticipate those issues being worse yet.
Is there a reason you're using WD/SR instead of SR/WD? I thought latest version of the spreadsheet with the Mutilate offhand doubleproc logic showed using WD offhand with IP, SR mainhand with DP was the superior option.

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Old 12/09/08, 4:07 PM   #189
Kytrarewn
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Kytrarewn
Undead Rogue
 
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Originally Posted by Murr View Post
Is there a reason you're using WD/SR instead of SR/WD? I thought latest version of the spreadsheet with the Mutilate offhand doubleproc logic showed using WD offhand with IP, SR mainhand with DP was the superior option.
Mostly because of what I stated earlier in the post- I view as the doubleproc offhand logic having been already accounted for in practice when "logic-checking" the spreadsheet, and am wary of deadly poison uptime with it on the mainhand.

I'll give SR mainhand a spin during tonight's raid with deadly though, just to compare.

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Old 12/09/08, 4:09 PM   #190
Murr
Piston Honda
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Dark Iron
edit: misread post or something

All I would say is I'd expect some compensation on DP procs by the fact that you can proc it off your finishers at least.

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Old 12/09/08, 4:18 PM   #191
Kytrarewn
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Kytrarewn
Undead Rogue
 
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Originally Posted by Murr View Post
edit: misread post or something

All I would say is I'd expect some compensation on DP procs by the fact that you can proc it off your finishers at least.
Yeah, I hear you. My current thought, though, is that when we're talking about an 11DPS delta out of a nominal 4300, any "cycle unreliability" will hit harder than the theoretical DPS gain in swapping hands/poisons.

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Old 12/10/08, 6:11 AM   #192
badMonkey
Von Kaiser
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Tirion (EU)
Sorry if that has been posted already, but the HaT spec of the first post advices taking Shadowstep (instead of 2/2 Blood Splatter).
Isn't Shadowstep considered being not viable? Maybe a more adequate spec would be something like this.

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Old 12/10/08, 7:59 AM   #193
Soulburn
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Spinebreaker (EU)
Regarding to hit-expertise issue i'd like to ask a simple question.

In WOTLK guides it says that expertise and hit are the same stats. So let's say i got X much of hit and Y expertise. Also it's been assumed that cap is 755.

So is it okay to say that i have X+Y amount of hit ?

Thanks in advance.

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Old 12/10/08, 8:11 AM   #194
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
1) No, hit and expertise are two different things. A parallel is drawn between them since under certain circumstances they have similar effects on your character's performance. But they do two different things, and have separate caps.
2) If you're worrying about the white hit cap, you're doing something wrong anyway, as hit above the poison hit cap (which, depending on your raid composition, is somewhere between 200 and 300) is not particularly valuable for rogues of any spec. You should be socketing Agi, AP, or Expertise (depending on spec), not Hit.

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Old 12/10/08, 8:25 AM   #195
xvvx01
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by badMonkey View Post
Sorry if that has been posted already, but the HaT spec of the first post advices taking Shadowstep (instead of 2/2 Blood Splatter).
Isn't Shadowstep considered being not viable? Maybe a more adequate spec would be something like this.
I believe it's kind of subjective. Shadowstep allows you to get back to the boss faster and that might be worth more to people.
Also some are finding straight Eviscerate spam yields more damage than Eviscerate + Rupture but there has been no extensive testing.

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