Hey guys I had a question. In my guild, there is another rogue besides me. Our gear is almost silimiar and when it comes to dps, he always has 500-700 dps advantage over me. I tried doing the 4s/5r rotation, but my dps just falls lower. Any idea what I might be doing wrong?

No idea. Get a combat log / WWS of him doing 500-700 dps over you.

According to Wowhead eviscerate has a damage range. The lower and upper ends of the range have different scaling factors. The upper end of a rank 12 eviscerate scales indeed with 0.35*AP but the lower end scales only with 0.15*AP. If you take the average (what the spreadsheet is modeling) it comes out to 0.25*AP on average.

Do you mean that there is evidence that the average case scales with 0.35*AP?

I am curious what do you people think about geming between 16agi/32Ap and geeming 16 exp.

according to the EP value estimated, there shouldn't be a difference, but I really find it frustrating when the dodge interrupts the rotation, howevver I am reluctant to gem for expertise for a few reasons.

#1 expertise has a cap, meaning I will have to regem as I get upgrades, which makes geming expertise not so attractive

#2 I don't like the fact that expertise is not a scaling stats, whereas AP/agility becomes more powerful with raid buffs, of course that probably have been taken into account when they calculated the EP value contribution.

in either case, i am curious what do you guys think about expertise, and how important it really is beyond the surface EP value.

The EP values do not change to a huge degree, so you shouldn't be worried that Exp becomes a lot less worth with better gear or buffs, because it won't (unless capped). It won't make any big difference, so it's up to you. If you want to gear Exp for predictability, no sensible class leader would object (at least not for Mutilate).

Yes, although it's a bit of a pain to test that conclusively.

Apparently, Aldriana changed his estimate for hit ratings. This makes sense to me. Intuitively, hit rating until poison cap should be the most effective rating to increase damage by one percent across the board. And since non-white accounts for 70+ percent of mut rogue dmg, Hit rating after poison cap would be much less useful and much less achievable due to the current gear itemizations. Since any serious guild would raid with a SP, It would be easy to get 210 hit ratings.

I have another question/observation. I've been noticing how glancing/miss/dodge does not affect how much I am critting with my white attacks. my crit is consistently the highest percentage of occurance (around 45 percent) on my combat log for white hits. I did not play my rogue in BC so I would love any explanation of this observation. Shouldn't missed and glanced attacks lower the amount of critical hits, since a missed hit could have been a critical hit?

No. White attacks are on a one-roll system - that means, with 50% crit, 27% miss, you will miss 27% of the time, crit 50% of the time and hit 23% of the time.

Hits are turned into criticals is correct, but you don't need to hit to crit (to an extent - there's a possibility of getting "crit capped", but it is irrelevant at this gear level). More information about the combat table can be found here.

ok, that's really interesting. I was under the impression any non hit-capped/expertise-capped white hits will effectively lower the actual critical hit chance. This was referred to as crit cap as you mentioned. So, since when did they inplement this one-roll system? haha

Um, it was discovered sometime before TBC launched. So, we're talking 2.5-3 years ago since it was discovered, and there's no reason to believe it wasn't always there.

According to MMO-Champion's list of bug fixes in 3.0.8...

Mutilate: this ability will no longer give poisons on the off-hand weapon two chances to be triggered.


Does this mean we'll need to go back to fast/fast?


EDIT: I changed Vulajin's spreadsheet to account for this and from what it looks like the best weapons are still Webbed Death and Sinister Revenge. Deadly on Sinister Revenge in OH and Instant on Webbed Death in MH. It beats out double Webbed Death by only 4 dps or so.

I'm more interested in what the results will be for Aldriana's sheet once that is updated.

My main concern is that the deadly stack up time while using a 1.8 speed dagger in the off hand will not be sufficient. I'd be sad if this widens the gap between fast and slow daggers even more.

According to Vulajin's spreadsheet the number of deadly stacks before Envenom would go up. This makes sense because now Mutilate will have a chance to proc deadly instead of two instant.

Double fast has always been better than fast/slow or slow/fast. The only reason Sinister Revenge was even mentioned before this fix is because it's iLvl 226 and has much more dps and better stats than any other dagger in game. Unfortunately now fast/fast is even better than before...

Fast/fast is better and has been but I wouldn't say that this has changed the actual difference between fast/fast and fast/slow by much at all.

Minor correction: your statement really isn't accurate, at least not if you believe the spreadsheets. In current WoTLK content, dualing whatever fast daggers are available to you will likely provide the best DPS, but not only because of their speed. Sinister Revenge still proves to be the best MH dagger available (OH after 3.0.8), paired with Webbed Death in the offhand. The margin is slim, but it's still better.

Statements like "fast/fast have always been better than..." are misleading, because it depends on a lot more than just weapon speed (albiet weapon speed is a significant factor). At various combinations of stats/speed/weapon damage, there will be many points of inflection where a slower weapon could overtake a faster one.

In the latest PTR build the Hyperspeed Accelerators have been buffed to 340 haste rating for 10 seconds on a one minute cooldown (on Live it lasts eight seconds and has a two minute cooldown). The new versions average out to 56.6~ haste rating.

I'm at work and thus do not have the spreadsheet available to me, but this should make them about even with Enchant Gloves - Crusher, or possibly better considering it can be timed with other cooldowns/buffs. It'd also be much cheaper.

While correct, this does not seem to take into account the whole "A more powerful spell is already active" that I get all the time from various procs. Would it be better to pool energy, SS more while you wait for the Rupture to fall off, which screws with SnD uptime as you are not building CP for the next SnD (pooling energy can have the same problem), or to try to sneak in an Evis (which has on occasion messed up both my SnD uptime and my Rupture uptime resulting in no rupture and a single point SnD thrown to keep it up while I build combo points)?

Except one of the things that makes Aldriana's sheet likely more accurate for mutilate is the probabilistic modeling of deadly poison stacks. That's one of the reasons why his sheet shows dual webbed death better than sr/wd, because webbed death helped with deadly poison application as well as more focused attacks procs.

There's no way the number of deadly stacks before envenom would go up by switching to the off hand, because now the offhand and main hand will have the same chance to proc a poison, except the main hand also has chances to proc off of finishers in addition to that.

So it will go down, the question is if it will go down enough to warrant keeping the slow weapon in the mh, or forsaking the slow weapon altogether.

According to Aldriana's sheet and my gear level (Naxx 10-man), it seems using Anarchy in my MH with deadly and the Paper Cutter in my OH with instant is still the way to go. However, various tests indicate that once an OoR drops, I would be better off with a Paper Cutter in the MH with instant and OoR in the OH with deadly. This is wrong in many ways... Namely that one of the best dagger to use Naxx 10-man is still the paper cutter while you get to bank weapons that should be superior.

Has the sheet been updated to reflect the fix to the mutilate poison procs?

No... I fixed it (hopefully). The hardest part was swaping instant to mainhand and deadly to offhand. I will be able to confirm if my changes are correct once Aldriana does them on the official sheet.

Here is what I looked for:
1. Row 144 of the sheet Calcs is named: Regular Mut IP Proc. Seems to be calculating the IP procs from your mutilate over the course of a second. Looking at the formula, I did not find any indication Aldriana was modeling the bug; was he? The formula multiplies the average amound of muts we do in a second by 2 (possible proc for each weapons) and then by 0.3 (the chance to apply the poison). Had he wanted to model the bug, wouldn't have been better to multiply the value by 3 since the OH currently gives an extra chance?

2. As for swapping Deadly to OH and Instant to MH, exchange all instances were you refer to row 70 by row 71 and vice-versa. This will result in your OH having deadly and your MH having IP.

Note that only Aldriana can modify the sheet with competence; I fumbled around and think I found something that works, maybe it doesnt.

PS: I find a 0.25% increase in DPS by using a Paper Cutter in MH with Instant and an OoR in OH with Deadly. This is an increase from MH Anarchy with Deadly and OH Paper Cutter with Instant.