I use my dual-spec to play around, our casual raiding guild is having problems on Razorscale, so I am going to try Combat Fist/Daggers with throwing specialization (FoK interrupt), and FoK glyph (20% damage). I understand that I lose some single target dps compared to Mutilate, but the AoE dps appears to more than make up for it (and interrupts are nice too), and I can switch back to mutilate before/between bosses, depending on the fight (gonna re-gem for AP or Agil I think - expertise was kinda nice for smooth Mutilate rotation, but AP/Agil should help my overall dps no matter the spec).
Completely unbuffed, on the 2 lvl 80 training dummies in IF, I was pulling 3K with just auto-attack and FoK. In 5 man heroic AK:OK (ie minimal buffs) where I tested it, it seemed very viable, interrupting the casters and giving me 5+K dps through the trash. I was originally planning on playing with HaT or PvP Muti/Prep, but with the chain lightnings in razorscale giving us trouble, I thought I'd try this. Has anyone else played with this spec?
On a side note, I <3 the XT heart. As Mutilate I was getting 6+K dps as an overall average for the XT fight. I believe I read that the XT heart has no armor, I have no ArP, except for Grim Toll, so if my grim toll procs, is it possible to send armor into the negative?
My offspec is setup with Throwing Specialization to help with Thorim's arena phase. My DPS remained on top for the entire fight with the spec, even after he landed I would just play Combat Daggers to finish the fight. I think that most guilds who are having issues with the AOE fights should look at having a Rogue spec into Throwing Specialization just to see if it helps. I had over 300 interrupts in Thorims fight alone (according to recount). I also did try it on XT and my DPS remained high so overall I am satisfied with the spec...
On a side note, If you ever run Naxx-25 - have your tank pull all 5 groups in Grand Widow Faerlina's room. Enjoy being over 40k DPS (Yes, I know trash does not matter... especially Naxx trash).
If Arpen really does work that way currently, in regards to pulling armor into the negative to give damage boosts, I wouldn't be surprised to see it altered at some point soon. Resist mechanics for spells used to work very similarly back in pre-TBC eras if you remember, with warlock resist curses giving huge boosts in damage when you started to bring mob resists into the negative. I wouldn't be shocked to see Arpen nerfed in a manner similar to how that was.
If Arpen really does work that way currently, in regards to pulling armor into the negative to give damage boosts, I wouldn't be surprised to see it altered at some point soon. Resist mechanics for spells used to work very similarly back in pre-TBC eras if you remember, with warlock resist curses giving huge boosts in damage when you started to bring mob resists into the negative. I wouldn't be shocked to see Arpen nerfed in a manner similar to how that was.
There is no cap on the amount of armor pen from which you can benefit. More points of armor pen always give you more damage (in the way more AP always gives you more damage, but more hit does not).
We are familiar with some of the theorycrafting for how great armor pen might be for fully Ulduar-geared melee. We're not worried about it yet because it's a big improvement over armor pen being a junk stat, which is where it was for many until recently.
This also seems to support the idea that Armor pen will continue to be effective right up to the asymptote, which isn't attainable by any gear right now.
I've combed through this massive thread and I'm fairly certain I've come to the conclusion I wanted, but need verification.
The algorithm presented for Combat DPS is to essentially keep Slice and Dice and Rupture up always, only Eviscerating when both of these have a reasonable time left. (You will be able to build 5 combo points before either has expired)
So if I find myself in a situation where Slice and Dice is at around 20 seconds and Rupture is around 7 and I'm near 5 combo points, I shouldn't Eviscerate since if I do that Rupture will run out and I'll be a few combo points short of starting it again?
It would seem that there won't be many opportunities to Eviscerate then? Mainly during AR's and lucky Sinister Strike combo procs?
I've combed through this massive thread and I'm fairly certain I've come to the conclusion I wanted, but need verification.
The algorithm presented for Combat DPS is to essentially keep Slice and Dice and Rupture up always, only Eviscerating when both of these have a reasonable time left. (You will be able to build 5 combo points before either has expired)
So if I find myself in a situation where Slice and Dice is at around 20 seconds and Rupture is around 7 and I'm near 5 combo points, I shouldn't Eviscerate since if I do that Rupture will run out and I'll be a few combo points short of starting it again?
It would seem that there won't be many opportunities to Eviscerate then? Mainly during AR's and lucky Sinister Strike combo procs?
I've been thinking about this a lot recently as I switched back to combat myself. My first suggestion would be to go to the Combat and Mutilate Spreadsheets threat, download the Combat spreadsheet, and enter your gear. Once you've done that, the sheet give out a pretty accurate DPS estimate, along with a good recommendation for cycle (note that 3.2s means you'll normally be hitting SnD with 3 CPs but 1/5 times you'll probably end up with a 4 point SnD, if I understand the sheet correctly). Now, that cycle is something you want to aim for while in a raid setting, but keep in mind that it is variable to change, with extra CPs from SS crits etc.
So, that being said, my suggestion would be to try actively "plan" your next few SnD and Rupture finishers in advance while using Evis as somewhat of a CP dump. In your example, I would have dumped my points into eviscerate when rupture hit about ~10 seconds, no matter how many CPs I have. By doing this, you allow yourself enough time to generate another 5cps so that you can refresh rupture as soon as it runs out. Depending on how tight you run your cycle, you might need a little less than 10 seconds to generate those 5cps, in which case I generally just pool energy until rupture runs out (granted you're not close to capping out).
I've combed through this massive thread and I'm fairly certain I've come to the conclusion I wanted, but need verification.
The algorithm presented for Combat DPS is to essentially keep Slice and Dice and Rupture up always, only Eviscerating when both of these have a reasonable time left. (You will be able to build 5 combo points before either has expired)
So if I find myself in a situation where Slice and Dice is at around 20 seconds and Rupture is around 7 and I'm near 5 combo points, I shouldn't Eviscerate since if I do that Rupture will run out and I'll be a few combo points short of starting it again?
It would seem that there won't be many opportunities to Eviscerate then? Mainly during AR's and lucky Sinister Strike combo procs?
If it does not prevent you from keeping rupture or slice and dice up, you should eviscerate whenever you find eviscerate deals more damage than sinister strike on per energy basis. According to my calculations, 3cp Eviscerate out dpses Sinister Strike marginally for 2/5 Relentless Strikes or greatly for 5/5 Relentless Strikes. 4pc Tier 7 bonus does not change this break-even point. (The calculations are done for T7.25 level gear). Thus, you can safely eviscerate with 3cps if the timers of rupture or slice and dice are running out.
Edit: Changed the calculations according to Aldriana's comment on AP multiplier of Eviscerate as 0.35.
A few quick and easy COMBAT rogue questions.
1. Is it possible to envenom too often.
2. Has the idea of a 7/51/13 spec for 4pc t8 been debunked?
3. Shouldn't the 4+ combo point rule apply to combat rogues as well?
Thanks for your time, hope none of these questions are a repeat i've attempted to research as much as i can on my own.
A few quick and easy COMBAT rogue questions.
1. Is it possible to envenom too often.
2. Has the idea of a 7/51/13 spec for 4pc t8 been debunked?
3. Shouldn't the 4+ combo point rule apply to combat rogues as well?
Thanks for your time, hope none of these questions are a repeat i've attempted to research as much as i can on my own.
1. You shouldn't be Envenoming as combat
2. Yes, 7/51/13 does not scale as well as 15/51/5, and the various spreadsheets and models reflect this.
3. Generally, you TRY to run a 3/5/5 cycle, but the cycle is based on a few variables and doesn't hold for everything.
3. Generally, you TRY to run a 3/5/5 cycle, but the cycle is based on a few variables and doesn't hold for everything.
Are you using SnD Glyph, because I'm having a difficult time keeping a 2-3s/5t/5e rotation - I occasionally let Rupture drop to get a 5 Evis off but I'm assuming thats bad practice? I should be aiming to ALWAYS have SnD and Rupture up with ANY extras going into an Evis (normally through AR) or is it allowed to let Rupture drop to account for a 5 Evis?
With out 4pc T8 I think having SnD and Rupture up at all times is vitally important, was even thinking of switching to a 5s/5r rotation? Currently using KS, SS and Rupture Glyphs
4s/5r/4e is the cycle if you use KS instead of SnD glyph.
To continue and "right turn" that thought. I don't run SnD glyph as combat and in fact find myself varying between 4s/5r/5e and a greatly truncated 2s/5r type cycle when there are fight interruptions.
But I've concluded that the steady-state DPS benefit of the KS glyph is beneficial, but I'm not running it anyway. I find there are enough fights where the Fan of Knives glyph benefits during the fight and at this point I'm not ready to spend two specs on combat.
Already, I find Killing Spree nerve wracking on Mimiron (since you can wind up in a place you don't want to be) and out of the question on Kologarn. And the other fights? Well, it's good of course, but since what the glyph does is reduce the cooldown and given the downtime / non-optimal uses of KS (Razorscale adds for example), that's not always automatically compelling.
Granted, neither in Fan.. But Fan affects your damage output on Freya, Razorscale, Thorim, situationally on Hodir, cleanup on XT. To me, that capabilty, net-net, is a winner over the KS cooldown reduction. I have seriously considered carrying stacks of each glyph and swapping between them a few times, but right now, I'm not sure about how many times a night that would happen.
Sure it depends on the fight. But for raw dps on PW like encounters KS is the best glyph.
I've been working on hardmodes a lot, down a good bunch of them and KS is oftenly the best glyph to use, FoK will up your dps on adds on Razorscale, Thorim and Freya. Ok its cool to get a better rank in the DPS meter by using the glyph but it is only really efficient on Freya. The DPS on Thorim (HardMode) and Razorscale themselves is what matter on those fights.
On Mimiron HM that can be a real problem if flames pop behind him, so there you can use Glyph of TotT.
But KS is really the best option as a glyph for efficiency, if you want to pose on the DPS meter use FoK.
I'm doing some work writing a mod to track internal cooldowns, and I've made the startling discovery that Berserking doesn't stack. I'd thought it did, at least at one point, but I'm very certain right now that they don't. It simply refreshes the duration. Additionally, in my testing, both hands reliably procced within 3-4 seconds of each other, which means severely diminished benefits from the second proc.
I'd assume this means that Berserking/Mongoose is the preferred enchant combo, but I'd like some confirmation or something that I'm not crazy. Did Berserking stack at one point, or have I just been horribly misinformed?
Edit: I'm just crazy. It was the same hand re-proccing. It seems the proc rate is just odd or something - it took me quite some time to get a double proc, but I was apparently re-proccing the same hand quite rapidly, suggesting that there is no ICD on the proc - merely a PPM. I was under the delusion that it had a 45-sec ICD, but that appears to not be the case.
I've been reading the last posts, but it seems like people are resigned to 15/51/5 for combat. I've been running 18/51/2 since 3.1 went live and haven't seen anything to suggest a switch to 15/51/5. Is the 5/5 relentless strikes combat build the standard now, or is it only better than vile poisons at a certain gear level? I have used a 5s/5r/5e rotation, I am assuming 15/51/5 with a 2s/5r/4e or 3s/5r/5e rotation would be more optimal granted a 4pc t8 bonus, but perhaps not if you did not have 4pc. Am I wrong with my thinking?
I've been running 15/51/5 out of habit, but I am tempted to switch to 18/51/2 just because I tend to some times cap on energy, unable to spend it fast enough. I figure I might cap a bit less if i trade the energy regen from RS for more poison damage from VP. They are very close in the spreadsheet for me, although 18/51/2 edges out 15/51/5 by an insignificant margin. Only thing I want to be sure is that the spreadsheet does NOT count the Envenom bonus from VP since I use Eviscerate.
Has anyone ran any numbers on wether you should use WP MH, DP OH or WP on both as combat? I'm starting to think that the t8 2pc bonus energy proc doesn't rly make up for the dmg you loose with changing WP to DP.
I don't believe numbers have been run in BIS Ulduar gear, but for end Naxx gear in 3.0.x, WP wasn't honestly beating Deadly by that much on the OH - it was ahead, but not ridiculously so. With the buff to DP, the assumption - confirmed by napkinmath if not detailed modeling - was that DP would pull ahead.
That said: somewhat independent of the 2/5 set bonus, T8 is worth stacking for the 4-piece bonus, so you *will* have the two-piece bonus as well; and once you have it, the damage gains from using DP aren't inconsiderable, so even if DP weren't worth using based purely on it's own merits (which, I'm pretty sure, it is), the set bonus would very likely push it over the top.
Has anyone ran any numbers on wether you should use WP MH, DP OH or WP on both as combat? I'm starting to think that the t8 2pc bonus energy proc doesn't rly make up for the dmg you loose with changing WP to DP.
Yes the numbers have been ran. Entire spreadsheets have been made with those numbers. Check them out.
Yes the numbers have been ran. Entire spreadsheets have been made with those numbers. Check them out.
Edit: Oops too slow.
Actually in the Combat sheet aldriana gave us after 3.1(thanks to ald for the sheet) you can't change the OH poison(without tweaking atleast and I'm not that good with excel). There's only the choise of IP or WP for MH. Wouldn't have asked if I could've gotten the answer from the sheet obviously. :P
Sure it depends on the fight. But for raw dps on PW like encounters KS is the best glyph.
I've been working on hardmodes a lot, down a good bunch of them and KS is oftenly the best glyph to use, FoK will up your dps on adds on Razorscale, Thorim and Freya. Ok its cool to get a better rank in the DPS meter by using the glyph but it is only really efficient on Freya. The DPS on Thorim (HardMode) and Razorscale themselves is what matter on those fights.
On Mimiron HM that can be a real problem if flames pop behind him, so there you can use Glyph of TotT.
But KS is really the best option as a glyph for efficiency, if you want to pose on the DPS meter use FoK.
We can agree to disagree about whether this is "meter posing" or not. Stuff needs to die, someone needs to kill it. The faster it's dead, the faster you can move on to the next phase or win the encounter.
I'm not going to argue about hard modes, having not done them. Nor will I dispute your claim that, for instance, Thorim and Razorscale are well served by the Kidney Shot glyph to beat them in the quickest fashion. Right now, however, I can help us win both of those fights with Fan of Knives. And it is doing 20% more damage vs. having, what, 1 additional killing spree in the entire fight?
The question to keep in mind is where the hard parts of the fight lie. There are certainly fights - Thorim arena, Razorscale adds, Auriya, and (arguably) one of the YS mind rooms for which there is significant stuff to FoK, and the ability to kill it more quickly is certainly advantageous. However, these tend not to be the hard parts of the encounter. Quick AoE on the lasher packs on Freya helps... but fast DPS on the Conservators also helps. Thorim arena is no joke... but killing him before his stacks get high is important to. And while fast DPS on the mind tentacles is valuable for Yogg, there's a lot of other places - including two other mind rooms - where single-target DPS is more important.
I guess my point is this: yes, to the extent that you're AoEing on bosses, optimizing for it makes a certain amount of sense. However, the AoE components tend not to be the hardest portion of the fight, and they only appear in a minority of fights. Thus, in my opinion, at least, it makes more sense to optimize for single-target DPS and let FoK DPS wind up where it will - we're not the main engines of AoE destruction for anything that isn't dying within seconds anyway. In particular, I'd never glyph for FoK - the extra KSp (or 2, or 3) is just more important in most cases.
I've been really enjoying the dual spec feature and I was wondering if anyone has a different opinion on which spec to use for which fight. In my experience these have been the better choices for me so far:
Razorscale: Combat
BF+KS and AR+FoK on adds really boosts your numbers in this fight
Ignis: Mutilate
Single target, basic rotation, murderable, nothing special about this fight that would make good use of Combat's cooldowns.
XT-002: Combat
Blowing all cooldowns on Heart
Kologarn: Combat
Stacking every cooldown with BF (you can hit arms+body from 1 position)
Iron Council: Depends on if your tanks are making good use of Rune of Power, if they are then Combat (Cooldowns+Rune of Power), else Mutilate.
Auriaya: Combat
When there are adds: BF+KS, AR+FoK, dps will skyrocket. Using KS to get avoid getting feared so you can continue dps is nice too (combined with KS glyph).
Hodir: Not sure about this one yet
Thorim: Combat
Lots of adds, same as Auriaya, and since most damage is by FoK in this fight I have been using Daschal's Bite instead of Webbed Death in Off-hand.
Freya: Not sure
Mimiron: Combat
BF+KS+AR is nice in last phase.
Other bosses I haven't done yet in 25 man. It seems to me so far that Combat shines when you know you can use Blade Flurry in a good way to hit multiple targets and maximizing your dps in those 15 seconds.
Spreadsheet shows combat 750 dps better than mutilate single target in BIS gear. Why does the notion that mutilate is a single target raid spec persist?
Spreadsheet shows combat 750 dps better than mutilate single target in BIS gear. Why does the notion that mutilate is a single target raid spec persist?
Is this on Murderable bosses? Hodir, for instance, seems like a pretty strong fight for mutilate.
05/12/09, 3:07 PM
(Yes, I know trash does not matter... especially Naxx trash).
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