So the question becomes whether subsequent rogues should be Combat or Mutilate. There's an argument for both. I'd actually back off a bit from my fight assessments from a few weeks ago. After the ArP change, and after doing more of the hard modes on 25 man, I actually now think there are only really a couple of fights in Ulduar which favor Combat.
Actually the question was why it seemed so many rogues were Combat. And I threw out a handful of reasons from what I have observed to refute another poster's assertion that rogues were basing their choice of spec on difficulty. You do bring up a very good point about DPS records and the recent change to ArP. I hadn't considered that. It will be interesting to see how both specs fair in deeper Ulduar content.
Hey guys I am new here so I have a fast question. I know most people go improved rupture, but I get more dps with improved Evis. Im sure this question has been answered but should I stay with the cookie cutter rupture build or go with the evis? On the training dummy in org i have pushed 2700dps with evis but with rupture the most i have seen is 2200.
Hey guys I am new here so I have a fast question. I know most people go improved rupture, but I get more dps with improved Evis. Im sure this question has been answered but should I stay with the cookie cutter rupture build or go with the evis? On the training dummy in org i have pushed 2700dps with evis but with rupture the most i have seen is 2200.
Now try it again fully raid buffed, and make sure the dummy as all the debuffs too. At the very least relavant ones that affect you. And make sure it's hours upon hours of testing to eliminate as much RNG as possible too. Thanks.
Using test dummies is not the way to test things like that because there's too much RNG. In any case, you're also forgetting raid buffs like Trauma/Mangle that increase rupture damage.
In the first post of this thread Dashcal's Bite is ranked over Perilous Bite for mutilate mainhand, but according to EP and spreadsheets Perilous comes out on top. Why is that? Something regarding ArPen values for mutilate would be my guess, but since it comes out on top in both Aldriana's and Mavanas' spreadsheet I am kind of looking for an explanation.
In the first post of this thread Dashcal's Bite is ranked over Perilous Bite for mutilate mainhand, but according to EP and spreadsheets Perilous comes out on top. Why is that? Something regarding ArPen values for mutilate would be my guess, but since it comes out on top in both Aldriana's and Mavanas' spreadsheet I am kind of looking for an explanation.
Yeah, that's funny - this is also the result that I am getting when using Aldriana's EP weights (gear similar to my own) in calculating the EP value of each, which results in a difference of 15.52 EP in Perilous Bite's favor.
When calculating the value of Perilous Bite using hit's somewhat increased value for Mutilate Rogues under the poison hit cap, the difference increases, again favoring Perilous Bite.
It almost feels as though those lists were made without accounting for the Red Socket and its bonus on Perilous Bite.
Originally Posted by Nannou
The list IS updated.
Yeah, this is why I suggested what I suggested; it seems the original post's author is aware of the iLVL change.
In the first post of this thread Dashcal's Bite is ranked over Perilous Bite for mutilate mainhand, but according to EP and spreadsheets Perilous comes out on top. Why is that? Something regarding ArPen values for mutilate would be my guess, but since it comes out on top in both Aldriana's and Mavanas' spreadsheet I am kind of looking for an explanation.
If the first post's list was compiled before 3.1.2 patch and hasn't been updated since, it would perhaps explain this as Perilous Bite wasn't item level 232 until 3.1.2.
The list might not be updated with the buffs the 10man hard mode weapons received recently. When I equip Perilous Bite with old stats on Aldriana's Mutilate sheet, I get a DPS loss in comparison to Daschal's. The live version (as you guys are seeing) is better.
edit: wow 2nd time I posted 3 minutes after someone with the same post content. arrrr
While the 51/7/13 spec provides higher dps come late Ulduar, would it be beneficial dropping precision altogether providing you have a high enough hit rating?
For example I have 279 hit rating at present, lets say I get Blood of the Old God bringing me up to 387 hit, and way past the poison cap with 2/5 precision.
Basically my question is should we change precision according to our current hit rating, and put the 2 talents somewhere more useful? And if yes, where would be the most beneficial place to put them.
Then I guess you just gotta go by the old stand-by: "Trust the spreadsheet." That's what he uses along with the forums so he'll probably change it when he makes the next update.
In response to the 2 points in precision, you can do that with Aldriana's sheet and the only place to put the points would be in TtT. When I make that adjustment to my gear, I get a DPS loss. I have 416 hit. I tried 1 in each talent as well but was still lower DPS than 2 full points of precision.
While the 51/7/13 spec provides higher dps come late Ulduar, would it be beneficial dropping precision altogether providing you have a high enough hit rating?
For example I have 279 hit rating at present, lets say I get Blood of the Old God bringing me up to 387 hit, and way past the poison cap with 2/5 precision.
Basically my question is should we change precision according to our current hit rating, and put the 2 talents somewhere more useful? And if yes, where would be the most beneficial place to put them.
I don't know whether or not it is worth it, but if it were a nice place to put them would be in Fleet Flooted, then you could get either a pure agility enchant on boots or icewalker again. Also putting 2 points in MP (If you use TtT) and vice versa might be good too
So, the problem with all these precision-dropping proposals is the simple fact that BIS gear just doesn't have that much hit to spare. I mean, if you were running 400 hit rating in full BIS gear and were thus only dropping white hit when you dropped Precision, it might be a different story. The problem is: that's quite simply not the case. With the BIS setup I listed a few weeks back, one has 306 hit. With 2/5 Precision you need 289 hit as alliance or 315 as horde; thus, horde players aren't even spell hit capped (though might consider trading a deadly gem for a glinting to get there), while alliance characters are only barely spell hit capped. And, quite frankly, the only reason you're even close to the spell hit cap is because you're using Blood of the Old God - if there was a bit more hit on other gear, it would likely be optimal to use other trinkets instead. Thus, you don't really *have* extra hit - so dropping points out of Precision is costing you the spell hit cap, and thus is much less worthwhile than you might expect.
This, combined with the lack of viable alternatives, makes it rather unlikely we'll find a circumstance in which dropping Precision makes sense - at least, in this tier of gear. In the long run it may prove more viable as we continue to gear up, but at the moment I just don't see it happening.
If one is under Hit capped when using this spec, there are a number of alternatives for reaching the Cap, such as hit food.
However, would you not get higher dps using Hit Gems in the yellow sockets. Since you are not hit capped, the values of hit are higher, using the values in the pocketguide, I get hit gems to be 29.44 and Agil/Crit Gems 28.4.
Sure, but that DPS difference is trivial. Yes, if you're not at the hit cap, you can make up some ground with glinting gems. However, that doesn't fundamentally change the point I was making - if you have *surplus* hit, you're basically giving up 26 points of a stat that - by the first post - is worth about 1.2 EP. If you don't have surplus hit, it costs you more. For instance, if you make up the gap using Glintings instead of Deadlys, you've now spent 26 point of *crit* instead, which is worth 1.6 EP each - so it cost you an extra 10 EP. And if you make it up using food, you're now giving up 26 points of *agility* (or 52 of AP), which is worth still more.
So yes: you can earn the hit back through other means. But there's still a lost opportunity cost to doing so. Thus, until such time that our optimal gear has *extra* hit on it - not just enough, not enough if you socket for it, but pure leftover hit even if you make no effort to stack it - dropping points out of Precision is unlikely to come out ahead.
As a side note: those EP values in the first post are looking a bit dated - we should probably update them at some point. Though the fact that they're off by a bit in no way invalidate the point I'm making.
While the 51/7/13 spec provides higher dps come late Ulduar, would it be beneficial dropping precision altogether providing you have a high enough hit rating?
For example I have 279 hit rating at present, lets say I get Blood of the Old God bringing me up to 387 hit, and way past the poison cap with 2/5 precision.
Basically my question is should we change precision according to our current hit rating, and put the 2 talents somewhere more useful? And if yes, where would be the most beneficial place to put them.
Even white hit, which is still provided by precision provides more pure dps than any other talent that is available, If you were to remove them I would think they would be places in either TTT or MP depending on which one you arent taking/which combination you are taking.
Fleet Footed would be another option.
Edit: Just ran some numbers through Aldriana's mutilate spreadsheet with some arbitrary gear over the hit cap and precision seems to be coming out on top of Turn the Tables/MP.
I'm not sure if the weapon lists in the Pocket Guide go from best to worst or not, but if so it would appear that they are now inaccurate as of the upgrades to 10-man hardmode weapons.
Both Aldriana's and Mavanas' spreadsheets indicate that for Mutilate rogues, [Perilous Bite] and [Combatant's Bootblade] are now second only to [Fang of Oblivion] and [Bladetwister] respectively. While neither of the sheets currently contain the updated stats for the 10 man hard mode weapons, when you plug in the new values it becomes clear that these two items in particular are 2nd BIS for Mutilate.
If I'm not completely out to lunch on this, perhaps the weapon lists in the Guide should be revisited.
Quick question on crit cap. I saw a post discussing dark matter and the formula for the crit cap and how it is possible to exceed the crit cap I think the number was 103.xx%. Is that calculation taking into account the crit suppression from bosses as well?
Quick question on crit cap. I saw a post discussing dark matter and the formula for the crit cap and how it is possible to exceed the crit cap I think the number was 103.xx%. Is that calculation taking into account the crit suppression from bosses as well?
You cannot removed the 24% glancing blows from the hit table. I'm not sure what you're talking about but the crit cap everyone else is talking about is for normal melee hits (white hits). For most rogues the crit cap for white hits is in the 55-65% range (ballpark).
Read through this post and a few followups. There are also several other posts in this forum that discuss it.
The 66.40 is after the 4.8% crit reduction is applied - against a same-level mob, it would be 71.20% crit. Of course, against a same-level mob, the dodge, miss, and glance rates would be lower - significantly so, in some cases - thus it likely wouldn't run into the crit cap.
Just a notice, you may want to change the Darkmoon Card: Greatness link in the OP under trinkets to the Agility one, its linked to the Strength version.
Because DPS is only one aspect of what makes a weapon good (or not). In this case: yes, the PvP fist is significantly higher base DPS, but it has *terrible* stats for PvE, which gives away this advantage and then some.
05/27/09, 6:35 PM
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