Yogg's P1 adds no longer cast mind control, per the "minor ulduar updates" from a few days ago, so that's a moot point.

Personally, though I don't have a dual-spec now, my second spec is probably going to be fist combat with throwing weapon spec. It's useful just enough of the time that it's worth having as an offspec, whether combat or mutilate (until you have the kind of gear to make both specs 'useful' for raw DPS, and since you'll probably strive toward expertise 'cap' (Kologarn doesn't count, and you can run behind the bitch between screeches on Auriaya) for Mutilate, it just makes sense.

Of course it never happens that you have more than one add up and need to interupt 2 shadowbolt volleys at the same time.

I think you are wrong about that Aldriana.

Rogues are Actually the class with the most powerful AoE ability. Combined with Adr Rush ou Overkill this is just insane. Even on long term AoE phases, we are not limited by mana or a cast/channeling. The more mobs there are, the more powerful is our AoE, especially combined with Tricks of The Trade to redirect the mobs, btw Tricks of the Trade is just an amazing spell.
In all fights where you have AoE phases like Thorim or Freya rogues pull ahead easily. I won't talk about Razorscale with is not really an AoE fight.

I don't understand rogues that says "i don't use FoK that much", well you should use it ever since there is 3+ mobs, especially on Trashs combined to FoK and your cooldown, whether it is Vanish to get overkill or AR+BF.

I'm surprised how poorly rogue AOE is rated in some of the above posts. A quick look at some of my recent combat logs shows rogues and death knights at the top of almost encounters containing AOE.

In a recent Freya parse, my average FoK cast did ~5400 damage per target. From this alone its clear to see that FoK against 3 or more targets is great value (and almost enough to wonder if I should FoK against only 2 targets). Supposing a steady state FoK spam, I get ~15 energy per second, giving ~1600 dps per target. From the same parse, a mage's Blizzard was ticking for an average of ~1400 damage, or ~1700 dps per target (not sure exactly how much haste he has). Of course, these are just back-of-the-napkin numbers, but I submit that rogues are competitive even for long-duration AOE.

However it seems to me almost all the AOE these days has a short duration, or some other factor that makes the stop-start nature of FoK favourable: Yogg, Freya (mixed), Mimiron (FoK can indeed reach the Aerial Command Unit in phase 4; try standing directly inside Leviathan MK II), Auriaya, etc.

The addition of Throwing Weapon Specialization is icing on the cake. As koaschten mentioned above, its great for interrupting Guardians of Yogg-Saron - either when there are multiple ones up, or even when kick is on cooldown or out of range. Likewise it comes in handy for Yogg phase 3 and Freya (although here it is more of a luxury than an added benefit).

I don't think you should make a big deal out of our AoE dps, or building a case to spend talents/glyphs in a specific way to make it better. Sure, you can - or not really have a choice but to - use FoK in a bunch of fights in Ulduar. But it's mainly for your own benefit (bigger numbers) rather than ensuring that the fight ends successfully. Don't get me wrong, using Tricks with FoK holds tremendous utility, but it will do its job without replacing single-target talents/glyphs. You aren't in a situation where you need to do X AoE dps or wipe due to a timer or being overrun (e.g. Kael'Thas weapons phase, Twilight Zone to an extent). Basically if you wouldn't emphasize on FoK dps, other damage dealers capable of doing AoE would do the job instead without any major consequences. And, even if you invest talents and glyphs to it, what do you win? You probably aren't getting away with casting a FoK less (or wouldn't notice even if you could), and most of the time other damage dealers cannot be assigned to tasks other than AoE, despite your big numbers.

If we break it down a bit in regards of the fights mentioned:
- Razorscale: Alright, Throwing Spec. has some use here. But you will get the job done by just focusing on the Watchers. And seriously, it's not the fight you should have in mind when making optimization choices.
- Thorim: basically anything will kill the Commoner waves in time, and yes FoK is pretty nifty on those, but the three elite adds are by far the more dangerous aspect in the arena (assuming FoK is still an inferior choice on so few targets). Especially so when only one of them has an interruptable cast so Throwing Spec. is hardly of more use than a simple Kick, Gouge or Kidney Shot. And you most likely wouldn't be the only person with an interrupt.
- Auriaya: same deal, Swarming Guardians don't come that often. Again, not arguing that you should unbind FoK here, but the dps requirement is trivial. And the adds can jump on someone out of range to you, depending on your positioning.
- Freya: YMMV, but for the groups I've done this with, the swarm wave is more about killing the adds in a controlled fashion, and the actual AoE portion is over very quickly.
- Kologarn: every FoK is damage you didn't do to the arm you're focusing. Stop being silly.
- Mimiron: Junk Bots are a really tiny portion of the fight, and I still refer to the part where you're only hitting 3 targets at best (and I'd assume standing inside of him would not be the greatest idea in terms of survivability in P4, not to mention if you push the button).
- Yogg-Saron: again, you shouldn't be the only person in the raid with an interrupt ability.

I'm not saying I don't use FoK in any of those fights, but those and the ones not mentioned are considerably more about single-target dps, so it is my opinion that one should choose talents and glyphs accordingly.

True Zujamar, FoK is great by itself, but you don't need to improve it where single target DPS is more important in every fight that matters in ulduar.

The only fight i found it usefull is Yogg 0 Keepers 10man (25Man is now undoable) where with double wound Throwing Spec and Glyph of Fok you can almost counter the first Empowering Shadows by yourself.

In Ulduar, I would say the FoK glyph is worth it on Thorim and Freya. On the topic of Freya specifically -- the primary purpose of the FoK glyph is not for the lashers. Instead, we can already establish that FoK is more efficient when you're hitting 3 targets...this means that on the 3 elemental pull, it is efficient to FoK provided that you can hit all 3 elementals. Furthermore, if you're throwing spec, you'll be interrupting 2 out of the 3 elementals. Furthermore, FoK has added use in the case of melee getting rooted. So overall, I think it's extremely useful on Freya.

You done Freya hard mode? Snaplasher has to be kited, which leaves him out of range for FoK most of the time, plus there's the added chance you're on interruption duty, and with the delay on the interruption from FoK I would really not count on this as a definte way to keep the job done. Not to mention all 3 adds have really varied HP pools, so all in all, I don't see the use of the FoK glyph here to be honest.
Don't take me wrong, I think Rogue AoE is underestimated, but save for the desire to top the damage meters, there's really no fights in Ulduar where I'd sacrifice single target dps for AoE dps.

Also, I think a lot of people are not considering the energy regain you get from having 2 set bonus t8. Using FoK to apply Deadly Poison to several targets (presuming you got atleast one of your weapons with Deadly Poison of course), the energy regain can become quite substantial.

Yes I've done hard mode, and I disagree. Your kiter can kite in a tight enough circle such that you will be able to generally hit all 3 mobs. Of course when the lasher is out of range you can go back to single target.

" Basically if you wouldn't emphasize on FoK dps, other damage dealers capable of doing AoE would do the job instead without any major consequences."

I'd recommend avoiding this as a form of argument with respect to WoW. It makes your case look very weak. To wit:

-- Basically, if you hadn't kept those HOTs up on the tank, other healers would've kept him alive with direct heals.
-- Basically, if you hadn't flasked on that fight, other DPS would've eventually killed the boss.
Etc. etc.

Sure, you can de-optimize your performance any way you choose. But arguing that it's a good thing to do so? Not persuasive.

Well, I think the point being made is that many Ulduar fights operate under the assumption that responsibilities are divided between various members of the raid; and, in most cases, this does not involve the rogues being assigned to a primary AoE role. If you are, you should by all means optimize for it; but if you're not, you shouldn't.

That is: on XT, there are adds to be AoEed down. And yes, you could, as a rogue, run around to work on that. But more typically it will be the job of the ranged to kill them, as they can do so without having to run all over the place. Typically your job as a rogue is to keep DPS on the boss so the fight ends, and only help with adds if it appears that there's a danger of some getting through. And under this scenario, optimizing your AoE is, of course, a bad idea - that's not your job.

Similarly, on Auriya - particularly Auriya 10 - the adds are squishy enough that everyone need not AoE to get them down. And if you're not one of the assigned people, there's no reason for you to be worrying about AoE as long as the people who *are* assigned have it under control.

Thus, whether or not it makes sense to optimize your AoE depends on how your guild happens to do certain fights. My sense is that for a variety of reasons (some of which are historical in nature, but some of which are not), it is more common to have ranged assigned to AoE duties than melee. Thus, one must assess how *your* guild does these fights, and on how many fights you actually end up on AoE duty, and then decide to what extent it makes to optimize for it.

Personally, given the way my guild does most fights, there's not a single fight where I find it worth it to glyph FoK or otherwise focus on AoE damage. If your guild does the fight differently, you may find otherwise. And that's fine. It's not that rogue AoE is fundamentally good or bad: it's just that it has certain properties, and depending on how your guild set up fights, you may find it more or less useful.

To extend Mideci's example a bit: yes, not keeping HoTs up on the tank is a bad thing - assuming your job is tank healing. If, however, your assigned duty is to heal raid damage, and you're instead healing tanks, that's equally bad. And there are some guilds that have shamans heal the MT and druids HoT the raid, and there are some guilds that have druids healing the tank and shamans chainhealing the raid. It's not that either is right or wrong in the abstract - it's just a different way of doing things.

Now, on some fights, the healing situation is such that one of these may be better - much as there are fights where rogue AoE is more or less good (for instance, on IC with Runemaster last, rogue AoE is useless). But for most fights, both are valid. Thus, for some rogues, optimizing AoE makes sense; for others, it doesn't - not because optimization is pointless, but purely because it's a role they are seldom if ever assigned to.

This sounds like a lot of opinion that is worth all of the stink of a fart to me or anyone. Whatever the reason we got Fan of Knives, we got it. And with Throwing Specialization, FoK provides awesome utility as well as awesome AoE damage. I'd say it's downright foolish to dismiss it simply because rogues have traditionally been all about single-target DPS. That was then, this is now -- the rogue class has evolved, so should your view of it.

Doing the most damage in a raid does not ensure that you're doing the right damage to the right targets at the right time. Anyone could be blowing adrenaline rushed blade flurried fan of knives into trash bots on mimiron the damage would be near impossible to surpass. How ever devastating the lead you'd find yourself with on the damage meter you would simply be beating the meter, not the boss. This entire debate has left the discussion of viability, and is now the back and fourth bantering of what guy A's guild does differently from guy B's to make an aoe specced rogue more or less desirable.

It depends on the encounter of course. On some encounters, the damage you're doing is damage that needs to be done. Say, Auriaya AoE packs, Freya detonating lashers/3pack, Thorim dwarves, Razorscale packs, etc.

Then there's encounters like Mimiron where you really do want to kill the Assault Bot to drop the ACU, or kill XT-002 or his heart rather than scrap bots, or burn Yogg's brain, or kill Hodir rather than fanning the flash freezes, or .....

Take Yogg's (full watchers) P3 immortals. If you have 3x immortals up at any give time, and span fan rather than assisting on the one in question? You're being a douchebag. Other times? It might, at worst, be a draw and sometimes be an improvement. Nothing saying you can't drop the 20g for a fan glyph and one of your standard glyphs for Thorim and Freya, then switch back to your normal single-target DPS setup for Mimiron and Hodir again (dependent, of course, on the order in which you clear the place).

I'd agree. I think the FoK glyph has it's situational uses. I keep a stack on me for Thorim 10/25 attempts, never thought about using it on Freya but I might just do that too. Though I have a hard time deciding if I want to replace my Killing Spree or Rupture glyph for FoK, which would you suggest?

Rupture isn't used all that often on Freya until you actually get TO Freya, and on Thorim I don't use it until he jumps down, though I also don't use KSpree as often as I could due to the nature of these fights as well. It's probably a wash, in terms of "dps gain", just trying to get a better idea of what glyph is a better option to replace.

At the same time, Freya isn't really a DPS race in the first phase. I don't really see the point in glyphing for the fight.

Lasher packs: You throw some FoKs and then have to stop so you don't blow up the raid. Attack, stop, attack, stop. Glyphing for it only really helps initially getting them down a bit.

Trio: Again, nice to get them down some, but then it becomes single target as you switch to the one not going down as fast.

Really, phase one is a control fight. Don't blow up your raid by killing all the lashers at once. Don't go kill crazy and drop one of the trio while the rest are at 50%. Either way, if you are specced to interrupt, you can do so adequately, glyph or not.

Thorim is the one fight where it might make the most sense because of all the available adds, but then you are sacrificing DPS on Phase 2 where the goal is to drop him before his stacks grow too high. Assuming you can survive the arena phase without glyphed FoK, there is still a strong argument for maximizing your DPS for the DPS race that is Thorim phase 2.

So while there may be situations that are arguably useful, I'm not entirely convinced there is any fight that absolutely calls for glyphing that way, assuming your main goal is defeating the encounter. Thorim is the closest you have and if the arena phase is a problem for your group, the only really compelling fight to glyph for FoK.

Why is this being a douchebag? If you keep the immoral with Shadow Beacon targeted while casting FoK, you are still doing around 90% of your peak single target dps to it. Meanwhile you are increasing your overall damage done by, say 50%. All the immortals have to die eventually, none of your dps is wasted. If the lost ~10% direct damage is not enough to prevent the Shadow Beacon from triggering Empowering Shadows, how are you going to catch up with the other adds anyway?

I think he is trying to say that rather than padding your DPS on an encounter, you should perform in a way to defeat the encounter as best you can. A lot of the times using FoK on an encounter does not assist in defeating an encounter but just increases your spot on recount/WWS. I partially agree, your primary objective should always be to beat the boss. If you are doing things to pad your DPS rather than defeat the boss you are a detriment to your guilds progression.

I'm not saying FoK isn't usable, I'm just saying its usefulness varies depending on the boss and that using it is mostly situational rather than Mobs>2=FoK.

I am sure you are losing more than 10% of your dps by autoattacking the focus fire target and using FOK compared to using sinister strike and finishers on that particular target. Do you have any way to back up your claim?

For what it's worth, even if this is anecdotal evidence, Immortals in the third phase of the Yogg fight were dropping so quickly in my guild's first Yogg 25 kill that the only time I even bothered to Sinister Strike one was when I needed a combo point on it to pop Slice and Dice so I could keep that up. The rest of the time I found my Fan of Knives to be a much better use of my global cooldown, as I was hitting multiple Immortals, interrupting them on occasion, and contributing in damage on Yogg himself.

We can compare the value of FoK vs regular single target dps as follows. Note that the data I am using below comes from my character, and other combinations of glyphs, talents, gear etc will give different results. First, FoK is relatively easy to evaluate. From a recent Freya attempt (sample size 280 FoK hits) we have:

MH FoK: 2650
OH FoK: 1750
WP * 1.6: 1000
Total FoK damage per cast per target = 5400

The single target calculations are a little more involved. We need to evaluate the following components:

SS + WP damage: 4200
Energy saving: 10 energy
Combo point gain: 1.25
CP loss from swapping from 1.4 speed OH to 1.8 speed OH
Damage loss from swapping from DP to WP on the OH

We can estimate the damage value of a spare energy as follows. (1) Record your spreadsheet dps. (2) Add 0.01 to your base energy regen. (3) Record your new spreadsheet dps, subtract (1) and multiply by 100. This is the damage value of 1 spare energy. For my character, the value is 200 damage per energy.

The value of a combo point is somewhat more nebulous. An upper bound can be obtained by assuming an optimal conversion from combo points to rupture damage. ie 4.4 combo points + 0 energy (relentless strikes and ruthlessness) -> 8 rupture ticks = 7200 damage, from the same combat log data used above. Thus a combo point is worth at most 1600 damage. Note that I have not taken into account the value attributed to Slice and Dice, since I have assumed that even when spamming FoK this would be maintained.

Since my post is already dragging on, I will abbreviate the CP calculations to 3.9 eps * 1.4 / 1.8 = 0.9 eps * 3s = 2.7 energy. I am not aware of an easy way to calculate the damage difference from OH poisons, but I will ignore it for reasons given below. We are now ready to estimate the total damage value of a Sinister Strike in the place of a FoK:

SS + WP damage: 4200
Energy saving + CP: 2500
Combo point value: 1900
Total SS value (upper bound) = 8600

Note that for the situation in question (Yogg phase 3), the rapidly changing targets means that the value of each combo point will be substantially less. It is unlikely that much rupture damage will be possible, and some combo points will be lost entirely. The same effect applies to the damage per energy calculation, to a lesser extent. Likewise deadly poison will be suboptimal, since it will not have much time to stack. Hence the total value of 8600 is a generous over-estimate.

Autoattack-based damage is around 60% of my total. From the upper bound, single target gives 60% more damage than FoK, or +24% dps overall. However, as mentioned above, this value relies on an optimal damage value for combo points. Using a more realistic 50% efficiency gives a single target damage loss of only 17%.

Finally, target dummy tests have shown a 10% single target dps loss from using FoK instead of regular single target dps. Note that this figure should be treated with care, given how far the test is from a raid environment. However, given the simplicity of the test and the systematic nature of the damage gain from raid buffs, I consider it reasonable to conclude that the actual damage loss is within the range 0% to 20%.

I was surprised, but it's actually close to the estimate I am getting too. You made some approximations and some napkin math, so I tried to be a little more precise about some of these things and used the simulation to measure some of these dps losses. I used BiS gear setup as my basis, using double wound poison since targets die too fast for deadly and eviscerating instead of rupturing. Base dps with that setup is 7300 using the simulation spreadsheet.

In that gear with raid buffs, FOK does 4159 damage on average; SS does 3654 damage on average; wound poison hits for 642, application rate with MH is 0.96 and 0.64 with OH (1.8 speed). 5 point eviscerate, which I am using to estimate value of 1.25 combo points, hits for 5873. So the value of 1.25 combo points is 1668.

Thus, each application, FOK does 4159+642*(0.96+0.64)=5191 damage. SS, including combo point damage, does 3654+0.96*642+1668=5942. So that's a 12.6% drop in damage of SS by switching to FOK.

Now I can use the simulation to estimate the impact of having to switch to 1.8 speed offhand and having SS cost 10 more energy. Making those two changes and holding offhand dps constant reduces overall DPS by 600 (of that 100 is due to speed change and 500 is due to energy cost). After making those two changes, sinister strike, eviscerate, and wound poison procs from specials account for 18.5%+6%+3.4%=27.9% damage, so replacing that with FOK reduces that portion by 12.6%, which is another 236 dps drop.

The total impact on single target dps is a decrease of 100+500+236=836 dps, or a 11.5% decrease from the original. I thought I'd share since this is an independent confirmation.

There is also an interesting implication of this finding. We are used to saying that FOK is only worthwhile if there are 3+ targets. However, if you assume that FOK hits 2 targets, then in the above analysis, on each application FOK does 10382 damage, which is a 74.7 increase over SS damage. This translates into a 1397 dps increase, so the combined effect on dps after accounting for speed and energy cost differences is a 797 dps or a 10.9% gain. Therefore, using FOK when there are two targets up (under the assumption that targets die fast and using deadly poison and rupture is suboptimal) is a dps increase over using sinister strike and eviscerate.