Trust the spreadsheet, it might be hard at times because it seems counter-intuitive, but nonetheless I would trust it on these issues.

Keep in mind that as combat your finishers aren't being dodged, so in practice less than 1.25% of your attacks will actually be dodged. Also, remember that whenever you are switching one stat for another, you're undertaking a trade-off. In this case you are trading reduction in dodge chance for AP/Crit, and as it happens to work out [mathematically], the AP/Crit will ultimately deliver more damage.

Yeah, all very true. I guess my biggest reason for even questioning this is that combat Rogues derive their two largest sources of damage from melee attacks and sinister strikes, so having these dodged 1.25% is not literallly a 1.25% loss in DPS, but certainly not something you want. But like you said, the spreadsheet shows the AP/Crit ultimately delivers more damage. Thanks again.

The key thing to keep in mind about Expertise is that it functions on a different subset of our abilities than hit. It doesn't affect finishers, which cuts some value right off the top, and a Sinister Strike, when dodged or parried, has a substantial chunk of it's energy cost refunded. Since we are generally more energy bound than GCD bound, we can generally afford the lost global of a dodged Sinister Strike as combat without much cycle impact - the 4 energy cost is negligible beside the damage gained from having more AP and Crit. Expertise is better than hit, but not by much.

It was just brought to my attention via PM that the following table is still listed in the first post

This is based on an obsolete (and disproved) theory of the way ArPen works; Sunders and Faerie Fire do not affect the amount of ArPen needed to cap - only Mace Spec does. Regardless of debuffs, you need 100% ArPen to cap out with rating alone, or 85% with Mace Spec. As such, the first post should be updated accordingly.

Interesting.....does this mean now that the "FAQ" post on the front Rogue page also needs to be updated which indicates the best trinket combo (in absence of Dark Matter) is Mjolnir and Darkmoon Card? Is Mjolnir and Grim Toll the better option with this in mind now? Assuming of course, that like me, you don't have any other ArP gear (Mechanist Bindings, Shoulderpads of Monolith instead of Treacherous, Fluxing, etc). The two trinkets basically put you right at cap when proccing together, leaving your other gear open to stack other stats. Any thoughts?

The FAQ was written with the correct information in mind, so as of when it was written it is/was correct. In particular, everything it says about Grim Toll is correct - while at very low ArPen values (like, sub-100) it might conceivably be worth using both, as a general rule it's not, and as the FAQ aims for one sentence answers (figuring that if people want nuance they can read the longer discussion) I'm fine with what it says.

The only inaccuracy in the FAQ with regards to trinkets is the fact that Comet's Trail has been discovered since it was written, meaning that Mjolnir/Comet's Trail is actually optimal for Combat, not Mjolnir/Dark Matter. It's also presumably worth mentioning among the best trinkets for the other specs, but I haven't actually run the numbers to be sure.

Well if CT is not exactly an option for me at this point, I'm debating whether to use GT and MR or Darkmoon and MR in the absence of CT or DM. I currently only have 46 ArP (without GT proc) from my necklace. I'm going to spreadsheet it like everything else, but will the figures be inaccurate with the above post regarding Sunder, FF, etc? Do new formulas need to be updated first to reflect this, and the need for full 100% ArP to cap? Or can I still use the spreadsheet posted previously?

Okay, let me be perfectly clear about this, since there seems to still be some confusion.

The information in my post regarding armor penetration is not new information. It has been known for months. There is nothing new, or different, or that has changed at all recently. I won't speak for Mavanas, but my sheet has had the correct behavior for a while. The purpose of my post was not to indicate that anything has changed; it was to point out that the information in the first post of this thread is based on a theory that has not been thought of as credible for some time now. The only thing that needs to change here is the text of the pocket guide. There are no other implications of this that you need to worry about at this time.

I assume that this is a typo, and the values for specials and poison hit have been jumbled.

Nope. Against same-level mobs, the base yellow hit rate is lower than the base spell hit rate, and it takes more hit rating to get 1% melee hit than 1% spell hit; thus, against same-level mobs (such as opposing players), it does indeed take more hit to yellow cap than spell cap.

Level 83 mobs have a 17% chance to be missed by spells (poisons) and an 8% chance to be missed by melee skills; on the other hand, level 80 mobs, including players, have a 4% chance to be missed by spells before talents or racials, and a 5% chance to be missed by melee skills.

This formula appears incorrect, if you want to find out the exact formula for crit cap check the simsheet. Otherwise, if you want to properly build it up, you can probably find everything in Aldriana's spreadsheets.

As it stands right now, I would not advise anyone to use that formula right now.

I've never known Aldriana's spreadsheet to have any calculation for the white crit cap in it. You aren't able to notice any errors specifically in the formula I posted?

And whatever error you think there might be are you suggesting it would throw off the final number by whole percentage points? Or simply +/- <0.1%? Because I've always understood the white crit cap as (in it's crudest form) simply 100 - glancing - dodge - miss. Not sure how I am missing something major. If anything the error would be a rounding issue which in all honest is incredibly insignificant.

Edit: Comparing my formula to the formula being used to calculate miss% to Aldriana I see no error in the calculation (I thought I did at first but it turns out I had heroic presence being counted in one and not the other). Aldriana's dodge% calculation is off by 0.03% compared to mine, which is equivalent to 1 expertise point. Rounding difference.

Since those are really the only 2 crucial formulas, I don't see how there is a major error with mine. If both of those are correct, it means either I blanked and 24% isn't the correct chance to glancing hit (though I believe it is), 3% is not the reduced chance to crit on bosses (though nobody has told me a better figure), and/or I am missing something entirely from the equation (possible, but unlikely).

Edit2: I checked the simsheet you linked. I've never used it before and not really sure how the whole thing works. But using the default settings (uses a very well geared Rogue as an example) it shows in the top left corner some various caps and how close to them the character is. For instance, 214 is (accurately) the expertise cap, and the character has 179 expertise. But then at the bottom it says the crit cap is 60.7%. Err, what? It seems to be claiming that is the max crit cap you can have, and that the character in the sheet actually only has a 56.9% crit cap.

Woah woah now. I must not be the only one who thinks that that is a little fishy of a calculation. Unless I am completely reading the chart wrong, of course, which could be. This is only the first time I've looked at it. Trying to follow the formulas was not nearly as easy as it was with Aldriana's either, especially for somebody who lacks excel formula knowledge.

The most recent post I could find related to crit cap is the following:

Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers

If this is indeed correct, then I do admit my calculation is off by 1.8%. I was being informed previously that the 4.8% figure was reduced hit, not crit. If anybody can confirm one way or another I'd greatly appreciate it.

The 4.8% figure sounds right, if memory serves. It's in here somewhere.

With all respect for your work, it's not a problem to pull out the crit cap in Aldriana's sheet.
The crit cap can be found by inputting the following into a cell: If you want a cell telling you if you're crit capped during the DM proc, put the following in a cell somewhere (DM proc crit is currently added as passive crit to the mainhand crit with the proc value adjusted for uptime, so it needs to be deducted in order to see the impact of the proc correctly):
edit: seems there's some problems with OO. "Equipment!H2" denotes "Equipment sheet, cell H2". Click the cell in yourself and it should work. Same for the IF function.
edit2: I'd overlooked calcs!B79 already accounted for crit reduction versus bosses, so the formulas should be (no +4.8%):

I'll get the program updated later today with the 4.8% figure as opposed to 3%. Testing it in my C++ version my result comes out to within 0.02% of using Aldriana's numbers (simply doing 80.8-miss-dodge). So once again unless there is something somebody is completely missing...

Thanks for the helpful posts.

4.8% was one problem. Also your expertise cap depends on points in weapon expertise. Hit cap depends on the points in precision and availability of heroic presence buff (assuming X and Y in your formula are hit and expertise ratings from gear, or you need to put in rating equivalents of the talents and buffs I mentioned above). 722 is hit cap with full precision but no heroic presence, and 214 is expertise cap without weapon expertise. If you properly build the formula, it will contain some sort of max or cap function for when expertise exceeds 214 because right now additional rating above the cap continues increasing the crit cap.

As far as your experience with Excel formulas in my spreadsheet goes, it's not my intention for a user to understand all the formulas, albeit the one for crit cap is a particularly simple one. It's 100% - capped chance to be dodged - capped white miss rate - chance of a glance. So I really doubt I messed that one up.

The formula assumes you have 5/5 precision and (if you are combat) 2/2 weapon expertise. It differentiates between having weapon expertise or not, which is why there are radio buttons for Mutilate or Combat. Also it can differentiate between heroic presence or not.

722 hit and 214 expertise as caps is a rounding choice. I believe I used 721 and 214 as mine. My C++ version also does not allow you to break the cap to give you the falsely inflated numbers like you said. I guess my buddy's PHP version overlooked that, so I'll let him know.

The PHP version was updated though to the correct 4.8% value. So assuming you do not put in values breaking the caps you should be good.

One foreseeable error though that I will have to fix is that if for some strange reason you have capped hit rating and heroic presence it will inflate your crit cap an extra 1%. Not a big worry of mine since hopefully nobody is doing that. The reason this is is simply the location of the heroic presence in the formula (it isn't being calculated with the rest of the hit, and is instead being tacked on at the end).

Perhaps I was misreading it then. All I know is that where it says "Critical Strike Cap" or whatever it gave two values. The left value said something like 60% and the right value (under where it says 'Current') said 56%. Something seems off about that, since I don't think you have 15%+ miss.


EDIT: I should really test your claims myself before I respond to them. Attempting to input values above the cap reset them back to the max values. You can not break the cap and falsely raise your crit cap unless doing so with the bug I previously mentioned (using heroic presence + hit cap). So I'm not sure what you were talking about. Also, since everybody is so used to the 722 figure I guess I'll just raise it to 722 in my formula as well. Just so there isn't any confusion...

Edit2: All bugs *should* be worked out now. Heroic Presence should now be subjected to the hit cap.

Sorry I was commenting on the formula not on the program, I did not see that you accounted for caps and all that in the C++ code. So it seems you have everything working now. As for the two values in the simsheet, the one on the left is the crit cap, the one on the right is your crit rating with all the procs up. If the value on the right exceeds the cap, it's automatically highlighted. Only thing to keep in mind is that you are going over the cap only while the relevant procs are up. The procs that increase your cap are those of DMC:G and DM trinkets.

Hey all,

I noticed that the 51/7/13 Mutilate build was removed from the pocket guide on the first page. I skimmed over all of the pages in this thread but didn't find any mention of the change.

According to the spreadsheet, I get approximately 60 more dps from this build over the 51/13/7 build in my current gear.

It was considered advantageous partly due to a bug in the way Serrated Blades ArP effect was calculated, specifically in Aldriana's spreadsheet.

While it's not a large loss of DPS, I don't believe there are any cases where it pulls ahead by a significant (p<0.05) margin - and it has the inconvenience of being more dependent on time-on-target (and is therefore less flexible for target switches).

It does however have the advantage of being able to pick up Filthy Tricks as a filler point. If you find yourself for some reason sapping trash in Ulduar (Vezax trash primarily) it can be a nice quality of life move.

Having a spare cape with a +stealth enchant is probably a better idea though.