Pocket Guide to WOTLK (Updated for 3.3) - Page 49

robfang · 05/02/09, 3:17 PM

In fact, you can equip the two of them (one agi and one strength). However their procs will share the same cooldown which makes them utterly redundant and half as useful.

Zoephobia · 05/03/09, 8:05 AM

Originally Posted by Raynforce

Hi everyone,

I understand that the best trinket currently is still [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]. Suppose I bought 2 decks, one Agi and the other Str. Since Agi will still be my highest stat, when the trinkets proc, they will both proc for 300 Agi.

My question is whether both trinkets will proc together? and if so, is that a good choice of trinkets?

To be honest, as a Combat Rogue Grim Toll is only 1 EP behind Greatness. This leads me to the assumption, that [edit: Wowhead link is messed up. I mean Mjolnis Runestone] is actually a better trinket than Greatness (and would in fact be BiS). Also greatness still costing ridiculous amounts of gold make grim toll well worth while, as the difference is tiny. (I would love to confirm this over a spreadsheet, however my PC + Spreadsheet + Open office isn't a combination I trust)

• Aldriana · 05/03/09, 8:25 AM

So, here's the situation.

Mjolnir, by itself, is the best trinket in the game for a combat rogue. In terms of second place, Grim Toll, Blood of the Old God, and Darkmoon Card: Greatness are all pretty comparable.

However: Grim Toll and Mjolnir synergize each other very well - their procs stack superlinearly, and they have identical proc behavior so they tend to overlap quite a bit (at least for the first few minutes after you start attacking). Thus, while in an abstract sense the listed trinkets are comparable, from a practical perspective Mjolnir/Grim Toll mops the floor with the competition. If you don't have both, the other two are acceptable substitutes, but if you *do* have both, that's what you want to be using.

So, if you have a reasonable shot at putting together Mjolnir/Grim Toll, you don't need a Darkmoon Card; of course, this begs the question of why you're doing hard-mode Ulduar fights without investing in clearly optimal equipment before now, but that's sort of a separate issue.

For Mutilate, the situation is less clear-cut, as you're significantly less reliant on physical damage, so the value of ArPen is lower. I suspect that the ultimate answer will remain the same, however - Mjolnir + Grim Toll being the way to go. But it's margin of superiority will likely be significantly smaller. But I'm not aware that the numbers have actually been run by anyone at this point.

Zoephobia · 05/04/09, 9:22 AM

Because 15'000 Gold is just the kind of cash I don't have.

But that's not why I made this post. When playing around some more with the numbers I noticed one thing: Should a boss be fully raid-debuffed, in this case Sunder and FF, a procc from both Mjolnis and Grim Toll would effectively be over the armorpen cap. With armorpen on gear (which seems to be more common in udluar, at least fpr leather) the overkill would be even higher.
Wouldn't this be somewhat of a waste? (I'm just assuming that bosses can't go below zero armor)

Kumar · 05/04/09, 9:40 AM

But bosses can go below zero armor, into the negative, so the dual proc effects from Grim Toll and Mjolnir will still be more powerful (atleast for Combat Rogues).

Edit:
Link to Test Done:
Official 3.1 changes and discussion

NoPoint · 05/04/09, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

For Mutilate, the situation is less clear-cut, as you're significantly less reliant on physical damage, so the value of ArPen is lower. I suspect that the ultimate answer will remain the same, however - Mjolnir + Grim Toll being the way to go. But it's margin of superiority will likely be significantly smaller. But I'm not aware that the numbers have actually been run by anyone at this point.

Based on what I've seen in terms of stat value and stat allocation for mutilate, it would appear that BiS trinkets would include Pyrite Infuser and Greatness.
I was a bit surprised that Pyrite Infuser ranks so highly, given hit isn't an astronomical stat for assassination. I'm guessing it's predicated on the proc and the fact that additional white hits landing equates to more FA procs.

Anyone able to shed some more direct light on this? There's lots of agreement on the fact that Grimtoll and Mjolnir are BiS for combat, but I've seen little on what works out to be best for mutilate.

On the latest spreadsheet, I'm showing a 26 DPS gain from Pyrite Infuser over Grim Toll and a 12 DPS gain from Fury of the Five Flights.

Edit: Just saw Blood of the Old God. I'd imagine this would take place of Pyrite Infuser for muti, though I suppose the question still stands as for which is a higher ranking trinket, Mjolnir or Pyrite.

Sabmiqys · 05/04/09, 2:03 PM

Originally Posted by Cally

PVE HAT, fast and flawed advice
Slow mainhand, fast offhand.
Mainhand Wound Poison, Offhand Deadly Poison

Rotation:

1. Keep SnD up. (3+ combo points)
2. Keep Rupture up. (4+ combo points)
3. Eviscerate. (4+ combo points)

I'm getting mixed messages on this one. Some HAT rogues say just evis, no rupture. Any feedback on this?

I ran HAT last night on Freya and Hodir. Amazing dps, particularly on Hodir. I just want to make sure I'm maximizing its potential.

Analogkid · 05/04/09, 3:09 PM

Once you have 4pc T8 you'd be foolish to avoid Rupture.

Mavanas · 05/04/09, 5:13 PM

Originally Posted by Sabmiqys

I'm getting mixed messages on this one. Some HAT rogues say just evis, no rupture. Any feedback on this?

I ran HAT last night on Freya and Hodir. Amazing dps, particularly on Hodir. I just want to make sure I'm maximizing its potential.

You should keep rupture up at all times.

chalon · 05/04/09, 5:39 PM

I thought it was determined that you don't actually need 26 expertise (214 rating) in order to be capped? I forgot what the exact number was, but I seem to recall there was some testing which suggested that the cap was somewhat closer to the amount needed for 25 rating (197).

• Aldriana · 05/04/09, 6:10 PM

The exact expertise needed to cap is 213.13; thus, to truly cap takes 214; however, 213 is in some ways a better number - the 214th point only gives minimal benefit.

Moshox · 05/04/09, 6:55 PM

I have a simple question.

I think at the moment the best spec ist 15/51/5 for combat with the 5pts in CQC.
My weapons are not quite good for this spec ([Kel'Thuzad's Reach] & [Webbed Death])

But i also have [Vulmir, the Northern Tempest] & [Stonerender].
Do you think, i should play with 15/51/5 spec and a Mace-Specialization.

I am not quite sure, because of the slower OH and I think CQC is better then Mace-Spec.

I hope someone can help me and and can briefly explain his experience.

And sry for my bad english^^

sedrikk · 05/04/09, 7:42 PM

The higher ilvl of the maces will more than make up for the inferior weapon speed of the OH and the fact that they are maces . But you should use the spreadsheets with your gear entered into it to get an exact idea of how much of an upgrade they would be.

Chimplicit · 05/05/09, 7:07 AM

From the pocket guide for combat its stated that:

2 [The Masticator] [Webbed Death]
3 [Calamity's Grasp] [Kinetic Ripper]
4 [Malice] [Rune-Etched Nightblade]

I have Malice, Hailstorm (No Rune-Etched Nightblade yet), Calamity's Grasp, Kinetic Ripper and a Webbed death all with berserking. From quick glancing I would have guessed that the Calamity's Grasp and Webbed Death would have been the best combo based on my current weapons; after plugging everything in following proper hit/exp caps I get Malice/Hailstorm > Calamity's Grasp/Webbed Death. (As for kinetic Ripper d/e it if u have a webbed death =p)

Dharenna · 05/05/09, 9:56 AM

Originally Posted by Moshox

I have a simple question.
I think at the moment the best spec ist 15/51/5 for combat with the 5pts in CQC.
My weapons are not quite good for this spec ([Kel'Thuzad's Reach] & [Webbed Death])

But i also have [Vulmir, the Northern Tempest] & [Stonerender].
Do you think, i should play with 15/51/5 spec and a Mace-Specialization.

The maces you have are so much better quality, tier higher, that other combo with
[Kel'Thuzad's Reach] & [Webbed Death] is really not comparable.
Even if CQC is the "best" weapon spec.
I quess that even target dummy tests will show at least 100-200 dps difference,
and it only increases with raid buffs.