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08/12/09, 9:33 PM
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#1226
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Glass Joe
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I have been pondering this for awhile so figured I would ask here since the topic has come up before. Is it worth re-gemming for ArPen without BiS? I have a good chunk of Ulduar 25 gear and some ToC 10 and 25 pieces, Steel Bladebreaker and Planestalker Signet. I was using the spreadsheet updated in the other thread, I am horrible at excel to the point where editing it the add the new stuff wouldn't work probably, and it showed a loss of DPS. I do pretty good DPS as is and just wanted some good feedback. Thanks.
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08/12/09, 11:59 PM
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#1227
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Glass Joe
Gnome Rogue
Burning Legion
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Originally Posted by GDizzle
I have been pondering this for awhile so figured I would ask here since the topic has come up before. Is it worth re-gemming for ArPen without BiS? I have a good chunk of Ulduar 25 gear and some ToC 10 and 25 pieces, Steel Bladebreaker and Planestalker Signet. I was using the spreadsheet updated in the other thread, I am horrible at excel to the point where editing it the add the new stuff wouldn't work probably, and it showed a loss of DPS. I do pretty good DPS as is and just wanted some good feedback. Thanks.
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I've been looking at it too. Generally though, on the first page of the spreadsheet where on the right side you have the stat weighing:
You want your ArP EP value to be close to your Agi EP value before you start regemming (if it's already over it's a nobrainer, go ArP). In my current gear I got ~0.01 added ArP value per ArP gem. However, my current ArP value with agi gems is 1.88, where agi is at 2.04, so regemming would bring my ArP value up to 2.00, but it's still behind, so I wouldn't go for ArP gemming.
This is just a small rule of thumb. Hope it helps.
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08/13/09, 1:49 AM
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#1228
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Rogue
Moon Guard
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Since there is no lvl 258 offhand mace from the Coliseum, how would [Relentless Gladiator's Punisher] compare to the Steel Bladebreaker in the combat mace setup?
Last edited by Aiye : 08/13/09 at 2:04 AM.
Reason: fixed the item link
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08/13/09, 6:25 AM
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#1229
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Aiye
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At 1.5 speed with no agi, pvp stats, and a blue socket, the bladebreaker would be higher dps.
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08/13/09, 7:25 PM
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#1230
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Great Tiger
Night Elf Rogue
Lightning's Blade
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I finally found some time to test Aldriana's BiS setup in the simsheet. Everything checks out including the fact that mace setup is slightly ahead of axes. Also ruptureless strategy is ahead of using rupture by about 100dps. As far as the changes to snd strategy, for simsheet users I want to point out that's how snd has been modeled in it before. To match Aldriana's refreshing of snd 2 seconds before it expires, go to DPS Strat and change "Refresh if this many ticks are remaining (1 tick = 0.2sec)" to 10. The default was 5, but going to 10 is a slight dps increase. Also I had to make some changes to allow for ruptureless cycles, so you have to redownload the simsheet if you want to use it.
As far as numbers go, my estimates are slightly lower than those in Aldriana's spreadsheet. I get 9833 for the mace setup, and 9789 for axes (that's with cat's swiftness).
P.S. all stat total match Aldriana's, except for agility, i am getting 11 more from the gear Aldriana posted, so there is probably some error in either my data entry or Aldriana's. I'll double check mine again.
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08/14/09, 2:46 AM
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#1231
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Mike Tyson
Night Elf Rogue
Doomhammer
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I added up everything manually as a cross-check to the numbers in the sheet (and corrected a few mistakes based on doing so), so I'm vaguely confident in my numbers.
As a side note on the Eviscerate cycle: the 5 seconds for refreshing with a full stack is a calculated number, and can be shown to be optimal. The 2 second number for refreshing ad hoc is a little more estimated, so it's possible that tweaking it a little might help. I'd think in general shorter should be better, provided it gets refreshed before it drops consistently.
Also: there was a slight spreadsheet bug that was overestimating the eviscerate cycle damage - my new estimate is 9948. Still a bit ahead of yours, but closer.
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08/14/09, 10:54 AM
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#1232
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Banned
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I will have to make a pause on my life and aldriana explanations, and ask this question:
IS MUTILATE dead in Wotlk (patch 3.2)?
After some months of hard research, after inspecting every single top rogue dps on every worldwide guild (till those chinese ones), everybody seems to be COMBAT.
Mutilate seems not to be top dpsing things anymore, right? I wanna hear from your own mouths, because is really hard for me to leave behind the spec i always liked the most, for me to survive as a dpser on my guild.
Before i get gear, i thought it was a gear issue. After good gear, i see i can do more dps being combat...is so sad. Please say something to bring happiness to this MUTILATED HEART!
best regards
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08/14/09, 11:04 AM
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#1233
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Bald Bull
Dwarf Rogue
Scarlet Crusade
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Originally Posted by Lord_Humungus
IS MUTILATE dead in Wotlk (patch 3.2)?
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No, mutilate is fine.
Comparing BiS gear for both, it is projected to be behind Combat in many fight situations but that line of thinking is largely academic and the actual difference is not as large as some would seem to make it appear. The actual difference between the two will depend a lot more on what weapons you have to choose from, your own personal skill and the the mechanics of the fight than on projections made based off imaginary fights.
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08/14/09, 11:09 AM
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#1234
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Lord_Humungus
I will have to make a pause on my life and aldriana explanations, and ask this question:
IS MUTILATE dead in Wotlk (patch 3.2)?
After some months of hard research, after inspecting every single top rogue dps on every worldwide guild (till those chinese ones), everybody seems to be COMBAT.
Mutilate seems not to be top dpsing things anymore, right? I wanna hear from your own mouths, because is really hard for me to leave behind the spec i always liked the most, for me to survive as a dpser on my guild.
Before i get gear, i thought it was a gear issue. After good gear, i see i can do more dps being combat...is so sad. Please say something to bring happiness to this MUTILATED HEART!
best regards
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Well I'm no math expert, but I know there's hope for mutilate with the new tournament. You spend a lot of time on target in the new fights as well as some of them being murderable, which is what pushes mutilate passed combat. I would love to switch back to mutilate, but I'm having trouble getting a hold of a good set of daggers.
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08/14/09, 3:42 PM
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#1235
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Von Kaiser
Human Rogue
Alterac Mountains
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Originally Posted by Tinwhisker
No, mutilate is fine.
Comparing BiS gear for both, it is projected to be behind Combat in many fight situations but that line of thinking is largely academic and the actual difference is not as large as some would seem to make it appear. The actual difference between the two will depend a lot more on what weapons you have to choose from, your own personal skill and the the mechanics of the fight than on projections made based off imaginary fights.
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What is the difference between your so-called "imaginary fights" and the "actual fights"? The dps is calculated based on assumptions of a perfect dps situation, (IE, no movements, no dps downtime, single target dps, etc). the Very fact that Combat possesses powerful CD that can be used in conjunction makes it a much more viable raiding spec than mutilate which only becomes useful in single target dps. The model's assumption benefits mutilate in terms of damage prediction because mutilate suffers more if there are heavier movements or dps interruption. Mutilate has to outperform combat on single target dps by a large margin for mutilate to be a viable spec in pve especially with so much armor pen floating around in tier 9 gears.
I've Played mutilate before and mutilate only, Despite how you might feel about the spec, when You try to present your position or make a statement, please try to back them up with reasoning, and not with you personal preference. You can not merely state that "this line of thinking is merely academic and the difference is not as large" without telling us why or analyzing what you believe that the assumptions are. Please do not make claims of which spec is better because you don't want to see mutilate becomes worse than combat. by not presenting anything reasonable to back yourself up, that, however, is the impression you've left here.
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08/14/09, 4:01 PM
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#1236
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Glass Joe
Gnome Rogue
Laughing Skull
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Originally Posted by Lord_Humungus
IS MUTILATE dead in Wotlk (patch 3.2)?
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I'm still mutilate at the moment (mainly because i like the spec and dont have a combat weapon) and able to hit benchmark numbers, but i will be swapping to combat when I can seeing how far it's projected to be ahead of mut in BiS gear. Mutilate is still great and fun, but so far it looks like it will be falling behind though there is still hope with undiscovered drops...
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08/15/09, 7:36 AM
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#1237
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Rogue
Frostmane (EU)
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Mutilate is a bit behind in dmg in 3.2 if we look at it as pure min/maxing. The fights in colloseum with lots of target switching or time of target lean towards combat as well. However if your guild runs multiple rogues it is usually a good idea to have one of them run Mutilate, to have it a bit easier with distributing weapons and offset pieces.
Next to that master poisoner can be a nice buff to have in 10 mans.
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08/16/09, 5:13 AM
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#1238
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Eldre'Thalas
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What would the EP value for max rank of Master of Anatomy(Skinning) be, i didn't see it listed under professions.
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08/16/09, 5:17 AM
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#1239
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Von Kaiser
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40 x your crit EP. Approx 64.
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08/17/09, 2:01 AM
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#1240
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Mike Tyson
Night Elf Rogue
Doomhammer
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Originally Posted by Mavanas
P.S. all stat total match Aldriana's, except for agility, i am getting 11 more from the gear Aldriana posted, so there is probably some error in either my data entry or Aldriana's. I'll double check mine again.
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Just realized I wrote down the wrong set of numbers when I made that total stat list; it should be 1440 agility total, not 1419 (stupid metagem). Damage numbers are still correct, though.
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08/17/09, 4:33 PM
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#1241
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Great Tiger
Night Elf Rogue
Lightning's Blade
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Great that's what I had. I wrote the difference was 11, but looking at 1440 it was in fact the number I had, so I am glad we cross-audited the data entry.
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08/17/09, 7:40 PM
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#1242
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Rogue
Silver Hand
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Originally Posted by Aldriana
Well, Tailoring gives Swordguard Embroidery, which has a 45 second internal cooldown and a 25% proc rate; thus, un average, it's going to proc about once every 47 seconds, giving it uptime right around 32%; thus, the average-case benefit is 400 * .32 = 128 AP or so. Compare this to the best available alternative, which would be 22 agi for most of us, which has a value right around 45 EP. So the overall benefit is right around 83 EP - give or take. In practice, it might be slightly higher than this, as the proc will tend to align pretty well with your trinket procs, leading to some degree of synergy. Note, however, that as the value of agility increases (and it probably will, with time), this margin will be eroded somewhat.
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I read recently that they nerfed the cooldown on this from 45 seconds to 60. I tested this and it was procing at 60-65 seconds. The article I read said that it's uptime is around 25% now so would that put it at 55EP or am I reading it wrong?
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08/17/09, 7:45 PM
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#1243
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Mike Tyson
Night Elf Rogue
Doomhammer
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If the internal cooldown has been made 60 seconds, then, yes, uptime would be something under 25%, the trinket synergy would be broken, and all in all the enchant would drop to the realm of "not even remotely interesting". As I am not a tailor I can't vouch for whether or not the proc rate has indeed been changed, but if your testing shows it has then yes, it's probably time to move to other professions.
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08/17/09, 7:49 PM
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#1244
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Rogue
Silver Hand
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Here's the article if you want to read it.
Quiet tailoring nerf in 3.2 « StratFu
I thought the same thing when I found out about it, as I had just leveled tailoring up last week.
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08/17/09, 9:22 PM
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#1245
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Mike Tyson
Night Elf Rogue
Doomhammer
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That seems to be mostly talking about the caster one - just to be sure, have you tested the AP one to make sure it was similarly nerfed?
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08/17/09, 9:53 PM
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#1246
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Rogue
Silver Hand
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Yes, I was 430 Tailoring until a couple of days ago. Darkmoon card was going off about 15 seconds before the embroidery buff would proc again. Hopefully someone that still has the profession can back me up on this.
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08/19/09, 2:55 AM
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#1247
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Piston Honda
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I see most BIS lists involving two completely different trinkets. Is it not possible to equip both versions of the Death's Verdict/Choice? That being, the normal 245 version, and the heroic 258 version, at the same time? If possible, those would be the two BIS trinkets, no?
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08/19/09, 3:19 AM
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#1248
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Mike Tyson
Night Elf Rogue
Doomhammer
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Death's Choice is the Horde Version. Death's Verdict is the Alliance version; hence, these two are mutually exclusive.
What does exist is two different versions of each - there's Death's Verdict, and then Death's Verdict (Heroic). However, as both are marked "Unique: Death's Verdict", one cannot equip both at the same time.
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08/19/09, 2:35 PM
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#1249
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Rogue
Perenolde
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trinket
Does the trinkets Death's Verdict and Darkmoon Card Greatness have any overlapping internal CD problems? Is it even possible for an internal cooldown of one itme to share another internal cooldown of another item? Just wondering...
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08/19/09, 3:11 PM
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#1250
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Piston Honda
Draenei Shaman
Earthen Ring
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They do not share an internal cooldown and they can stack with each other.
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