Pocket Guide to WOTLK (Updated for 3.3) - Page 50

vittas · 05/05/09, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

So, here's the situation.

Mjolnir, by itself, is the best trinket in the game for a combat rogue. In terms of second place, Grim Toll, Blood of the Old God, and Darkmoon Card: Greatness are all pretty comparable.

Using the AP values from the pocket guide, I calculated that [Pyrite Infuser] is a tad better than [Grim Toll] and a tad worse than the other 2 you mention. Is there a reason you don't mention [Pyrite Infuser] or my calculations are way off?

Lightshadow · 05/05/09, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by vittas

Using the AP values from the pocket guide, I calculated that [Pyrite Infuser] is a tad better than [Grim Toll] and a tad worse than the other 2 you mention. Is there a reason you don't mention [Pyrite Infuser] or my calculations are way off?

Grim toll is actually better than what you'd get if you just multiplied EP * proc uptime * proc value for the same reason that grim toll + runestone are better together than each is on its own -- all other things equal the value of armor pen actually goes up the more you have. The other thing you might not have taken into account is the "on crit" rather than "on hit" part of the pyrite infuser proc -- it makes the expected proc cycle about 55 seconds (45 for the internal cooldown and an average of 10 to proc again) instead of 50 seconds, so the average uptime is only 18.2% instead of 20%. The EP values listed in the trinkets section later in the guide are about right.

rescoto · 05/05/09, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by Chimplicit

From the pocket guide for combat its stated that:

2 [The Masticator] [Webbed Death]
3 [Calamity's Grasp] [Kinetic Ripper]
4 [Malice] [Rune-Etched Nightblade]

I have Malice, Hailstorm (No Rune-Etched Nightblade yet), Calamity's Grasp, Kinetic Ripper and a Webbed death all with berserking. From quick glancing I would have guessed that the Calamity's Grasp and Webbed Death would have been the best combo based on my current weapons; after plugging everything in following proper hit/exp caps I get Malice/Hailstorm > Calamity's Grasp/Webbed Death. (As for kinetic Ripper d/e it if u have a webbed death =p)

Did you swap your 5 pts from Sword Spec into CQC when doing your comparison?

Chaboi · 05/05/09, 2:10 PM

Quick questions about multiple rogue raids. Master Poisoner gives the rogue a 45% increased chance to apply deadly poison after an envenom. If there are two rogues in a raid and one of them has master poisoner does the other who does not spec into it receive the 45% application bonus? Would that make Turn the Tables the better spec if there is another rogue with master poisoner?

saedo · 05/05/09, 2:18 PM

Originally Posted by Chaboi

Quick questions about multiple rogue raids. Master Poisoner gives the rogue a 45% increased chance to apply deadly poison after an envenom. If there are two rogues in a raid and one of them has master poisoner does the other who does not spec into it receive the 45% application bonus? Would that make Turn the Tables the better spec if there is another rogue with master poisoner?

No the other rogue doesn't affect your envenom buffs. But a few points in ToT over MP could be better depending on your own gear, MP has diminishing values.

Majingshi · 05/05/09, 2:59 PM

While geming items, should you stack expertise to get the cap, and should you stack hit to around 200 to get max hit in a raid (Yellow damage)? Or should you have more of a balance between agi/ap and hit/expertise?

Edit: Move my thread, I did have the wrong forum. I meant to post in the simple Q/A.

Schmoopy · 05/05/09, 3:04 PM

So poison cap is supposed to be 315 with just 5% from talents. How was this number gotten? Don't you need 12% hit (so like 396 rating I think) if you want to hit poison cap only using the 5% from talents?

I just got pyrite and I'm at 332 hit rating but only have a lil over 10% hit. So with my hit rating of 332 and counting 5% from talents and 3 % from spriest or imp FF, I could stand to lose 1% hit and still be poison capped.

I'm probably missing something really obvious here, but I don't know what it is.

saedo · 05/05/09, 3:19 PM

Originally Posted by Schmoopy

I'm probably missing something really obvious here, but I don't know what it is.

Spell hit is not Physical Hit.

Spell hit is 26.23 per 1%. Physical Hit is 32.79 per 1%.

Tinwhisker · 05/05/09, 3:30 PM

Originally Posted by Majingshi

While geming items, should you stack expertise to get the cap, and should you stack hit to around 200 to get max hit in a raid (Yellow damage)? Or should you have more of a balance between agi/ap and hit/expertise?

You would most likely get a faster/better answer in the Q/A thread stickied at the top but here goes.

Stacking Expertise to the cap through the use of gems is an acceptable and generally preferred method of gem'ing for raiding Mutilate builds. Stacking AP/Agi in its stead is also acceptable but not as prevalent; gem whichever fits your play style more closely.

Rogues who stack for Expertise run tight cycles where a single dodge could potentially be costly; rogues that stack for Agi/AP generally do so during learning phases of content or because of potential gear drop interactions. With the T8 4pc bonus out there, Agi will be a very powerful stat but even then the Agi/AP rogues will eventually move to gem'ing Expertise over time though.

Gem'ing for hit should be done on a case by case basis; use a spreadsheet to be sure. I would wager though that it is not beneficial until your hit drops well below what you can get through normal drops.

Chimplicit · 05/05/09, 4:49 PM

Originally Posted by rescoto

Did you swap your 5 pts from Sword Spec into CQC when doing your comparison?

Yup with my current gear Cg/Wd I get 6460.6574 dps (CQC dropping Sword spec)
with Malice/hailstorm I get 6477.2075 dps (Sword spec dropping CQC)

Chaboi · 05/05/09, 5:28 PM

Question. With the changes to mutilate it is no longer possible to start a fight with HfB already up, is it more important to get your SnD up first or get the combo pts to rupture then start up HfB? Any analysis done on this?

Xaoc · 05/05/09, 7:06 PM

If you open with Garrote, you'll accomplish both in 3 GCDs. From there you can work on the rest of your cycle. If you have a DPS war or a druid in your group, you can open with Ambush, then get HfB up and continue with your cycle.

NoPoint · 05/05/09, 8:09 PM

Originally Posted by Lightshadow

Grim toll is actually better than what you'd get if you just multiplied EP * proc uptime * proc value for the same reason that grim toll + runestone are better together than each is on its own -- all other things equal the value of armor pen actually goes up the more you have. The other thing you might not have taken into account is the "on crit" rather than "on hit" part of the pyrite infuser proc -- it makes the expected proc cycle about 55 seconds (45 for the internal cooldown and an average of 10 to proc again) instead of 50 seconds, so the average uptime is only 18.2% instead of 20%. The EP values listed in the trinkets section later in the guide are about right.

I'm still curious as to if anyone has modeled mutilate trinkets. Best I can tell, Greatness + Blood of the Old God are BiS for mutilate, followed by either Mjolnir (sp?) or Pyrite Infuser.

The problem with Mjolnir is the proc doesn't effect poison damage, which is a huge benefit to mutilate builds which derive a greater portion of damage from poisons.

I'm still anxiously awaiting current models of all considered trinkets in a spreadsheet. If I'm off in this assumption please let me know.

chalon · 05/05/09, 8:10 PM

Originally Posted by Chaboi

Question. With the changes to mutilate it is no longer possible to start a fight with HfB already up, is it more important to get your SnD up first or get the combo pts to rupture then start up HfB? Any analysis done on this?

Though it's by no means optimal from a DPS standpoint, I have just been doing 2x Mutilate > SnD, by the time that happens someone else in the raid has a bleed up so I can hit HfB, then continue my cycle as per normal. Keep in mind part of your responsibility is putting up a bit of burst at the start to help with tank aggro.

Nomadic · 05/05/09, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Chaboi

Question. With the changes to mutilate it is no longer possible to start a fight with HfB already up, is it more important to get your SnD up first or get the combo pts to rupture then start up HfB? Any analysis done on this?

Having a feral tank normally allows me to Hfb on the way into the boss.

Alternatively, I generally find myself opening with a garrote (if stealthing in is viable), using snd with that combo point and then working my way up into a standard 4+e/4+r rotation. I cannot say this is the most number efficient method, however I find it gets me into a stable rotation in the quickest possible manner. This may need to change once I start using 4pc T8 (as I imagine having Rup up for as long as possible would be ideal)