Could someone explain why the [Battlemaster's Rage] trinket has the same Wowhead score as [Death's Choice]? Both give 256 passive AP, but the PvE trinket clearly has the better built-in ability. Or is there EP tied to health boosts( dead rogues do no damage philosophy )?

Wowhead's scoring does not account for procs, and is thus useless for trinkets; they score the same because both give 256 AP as far as it is concerned.

Aldriana I would like to know if you considered the 3.2.2 ArP nerf in your last BiS gear list. (and if there is an updated spreadsheet to start looking for different pieces if we will have to)!

Thanks

I have a sneaking suspicion he was not able to include the ArPen nerf in his BiS gear list. Without running the numbers I have a feeling we will be looking seriously at regemming once again to Agi and most likely going Hack and Slash once again. Mace/dagger will still be viable in some way I am sure but I really do feel sword/axe will be the way to go. Once I am able to check some numbers I will post up my findings here and see what everyone else shows.

Should be interesting to see what gear choices we will start making. Will haste once again shine like it did in BC? Or will agi become the be all and end all for our dps? OR will it be a combination of the above?

I think we will be still using full armor penetration for BiS gear, but the the limit when you will start full socketing for it will be a little higher, mean you must have more end game gear. That's what I think, because the nerf is still from 125 to 110, not from 125 to 50.

(haven't done any calculation anyway so it's only my stupid opinion)

So, all I did to determine the armor pen values (for myself) in 3.2.2 was a simplecalc to see:
Right now in my current gear, I have 561 passive ArP (using ArP food) and my ArP value in the table is 2.25.

In 3.2.2, assuming that it's 110% as opposed to 125%, I simply calc'd 2.25 / 1.25 * 1.1 = 1.98. In my gear Agi is worth 2.02. Thus, Agility at my gear level seems to be valued more. The cap will be around 765 (again, rough calc so could be wrong) with the runestone, so I'm quite a ways from this.

My calcs aren't detailed enough to make a 100% authoritative decision on swapping back to agility (and getting closer to 765 ArP might make ArP more valuable than Agi), just some rough estimates to see what might happen.

If you wait to use BF with Killing Spree every time, you waste your killing spree glyph, and might as well use adrenaline rush glyph. Without the KS glyph, they have the same cooldown.

Question... what do you guys really feel about the 2pc T9. Its a 2% per tic from what I understand that it will proc. Myself and a friend tested some things out on a training dummy and found that it hardly goes off. I myself think that blizz needs to buff it up some. As it is now, it really is not that great of a 2pc bonus.

No shit :P As of now, assuming 100% rupture up time and proper usage, it's about a gain of 0.4 energy per second, compared to the 2 pc of t8 which is 0.33 energy per second. It's slightly more, but when dropping one to pick up another, it isn't much of a gain. It also can, when pooling, be completely (or somewhat) wasted by capping out and causing you to be incapable of reducing your energy (because you have a proc) for a global.

Sorry this approach is incorrect. That was my first inclination to multiply arpen values through by a new coefficient, but that would only be true if the effect of armor penetration were linear. However, we all know that armor pen exhibits increasing returns, meaning the more armor pen you have, the more valuable it will be.

So the effect of the armor pen nerf is twofold: 1) holding percentage armor penetration constant, each additional point in armor pen is going to give 1.25/1.1=1.1(36) less dps value; 2) second impact is more pronounced: holding armor penetration rating constant (think holding gear constant), the armor penetration change has pushed you to a lower armor pen percentage, which due to increasing returns of armor pen now makes each additional point in armor pen do significantly less dps.

So there is no quick way, such as multiplying through by 1.25/1.1. You actually have to recalculate the spreadsheet.

I am working with the spread sheet which i think is awesome but im a bit perplexed.
I followed all the recomendations for gems and gear and it took me from 26 expertise to 19.

Does the spread sheet account for the 26 ex cap?

I wanted to try and sub the expertise gems and see where my dps went to but expertise gems are not even an option.

Is the spread seet set up assuming your at 26 % expertise with your gear already?

I took out Arp gems from my belt and replaced with expertise gems to put me at 26% but it appears its actually lowered my dps on the raids i have done.

My final point is still ~accurate as far as I see it. Because the two values, agility and ArP, are ~10% apart from each other now (with my gear in the spreadsheet), this nerf will affect me so that 20 agility (1 gem) will be more beneficial than 20 ArP. I wasn't looking for a value of X such that "My dps will drop by X because of the nerf." I sought out to look for the answer to "Will I have to regem, y/n?"

I realize ArP doesn't work in a linear fashion, however my method treated it as such. My method determined that Agility would become better than ArP for gemming. However, considering the fact that the nerf is more significant than how I treated it, the final answer remains unchanged. It's just a more significant "yes".

Is this subject to change with higher ArP levels? Of course
Does this change my decision? No, it only sets me back to the gearing days of right before I made the ArP switch, just waiting till I get enough to make the swap (If, in fact, it is worth it to go ArP over Agi with this nerf at any given point (which is something on which I hold no baring)).

is this BiS only for Combat? or can it be used for Mutilate as well?

That BiS list is pre-ArP nerf and probably not ideal anymore.

Were the Efficiency Point values adjusted with the Arp changes?

While I know EPs are flawed by nature and more reference points than anything, it seems like 2.24 for combat is almost too high with the new Arp values.

ArP nerf aside that list most likely is not BiS for Mutilate because it is ArP heavy. Mutilate most likely takes Head, Chest, Gloves, and Shoulders (as it is the combo with the most expertise and the least ArP) and uses off-set pants. It most likely wont take some of the other pieces as well.

Don't quote me on any of this I'm just roughly looking at the gear and trying to stay as far away from ArP and as close as possible to Expertise for a Mutilate setup.

The bombs would be [Saronite Bomb] made by [Box of Bombs].

EP actually stands for equivalence points if I recall correctly, as they are used as a reference point (1 EP is the equivalent of 1 attack power). As far as the adjustments go, Aldriana's latest spreadsheet beta has the option to adjust for the upcoming armor penetration nerf. Even post nerf, I am still seeing armor penetration being valued at 2.6 or more at high levels (1000+). While this isn't nearly as high as live values (I'm able to get Arpen all the way up to 3.2 EP currently), it's still more valuable by a long shot than straight agility, which is rarely worth more than 2.2 EP.

What about values below 1k? I'm running 567 passive ArP with the Runestone. In my gear (I don't know where to find a version of the spreadsheet that takes into account the ArP changes) with my ArP would it be worth it to stick with ArP, or would Agi surpass ArP's value until I can possibly have 1000+ ArP with my gear?

In the table I swapped an ArP gem for an Agi gem just to get a correct reading of the value without the Runestone, and with 547 ArP passive the value of ArP is 2.28, with Agi at 2.02.

Best option is probably just to wait for the spreadsheet, but from what you've seen what can you say about / to the rogues still using the Runestone (as I'm sure many of us are waiting for an Algalon or Twins kill) in terms of gemming values?

Edit: I just noticed that every expansion has had one encounter referred to as twins. Hrm.

Go to page 49 of the thread devoted to Aldriana's spreadsheets. The last post has a link to the latest beta version. Just for fun I plugged in your gear and activated the 3.2.2 armor penetration nerf. Looks like armor pen will still come out ahead of agility for you, but only very slightly - it's less than 1/10 of 1 EP ahead of agi. If you gem and gear closer to the new soft cap though, ArPen will pull further ahead, even if you don't choose to break your 4 piece T8.

Are you sure you are using the 3.2.2 ArP nerf greenjello? Because my gear is similar to Istarian's. I have runestone and have an ArP value close to that of Istarian's (545) and my ArP EP is nowhere near that of Agi's. While Agi is sitting just under 2.0, ArP is still down at 1.825.

I realize I am specced for poisons which will obviously have some impact. But even switching to the standard 15/51/5 I can only get ArP to 0.1 less EP or worse. It definitely is not 'better'. Even switching my spec and glyphs to go Evis only, AND putting on BoV to boost my ArP really far, I can only get ArP to just about equal Agi (Agi still has a very slight edge of ~0.01 EP)

#1. Apologise if this is the wrong place to post this question.
#2. Apologise if the information is on the site already, I was not able to find it. If it does exist, please point to where I can find it.


My question;

Can someone please explain Armor Penetration to me and how it relates to overall rogue DPS in PvE Heroics and Raids? I understand the concept ("expose/ignore opponents armor value"), but until recently (ex. 3.2), and upon snagging "Banner of Victory" from TOC, I never really heard of ArP, nor paid much attention to it (perhaps a mistake?).

None-the-less, I am constantly striding to improve my character in anyway possible, especially my overall DPS or gear values/stats. But I am in the dark when ArP is concerned. All the information I've found here just gives obscure information, tid bits of opinion, and nothing solid explaining the use of ArP in PvE combat and PvE stats... (Yes, my primary spec is Combat, feel free to run Armory or WoWHead Profiler, it should be up to date)... Thanks.