That's a lot harder to answer. Basically, you need a lot of Armor Penetration on your gear -- this usually means having [Mjolnir Runestone] -- for it to surpass Agility in EP, because the more ArPen you have, the more effective it is. So it'll really depend on what gear you are using already; the easiest way to find out if ArPen is more useful to stack than Agi is to use the current version of Aldriana's spreadsheet and simply replace all your red Agi gems with ArPen gems and see if your final estimated DPS is higher or lower than it used to be. There's no definitive breaking point in ArPen or any other stat that we can point to as an indicator for when actually replacing all your gems will yield better damage.
Okay, new BIS proposal. As usual, all drops are heroic if available:
T9 Helm, Shoulders, Chest, and Legs
Collar of Ceaseless Torment
Vereesa's Dexterity
Bracers of Dark Determination
Gloves of the Silver Assassin
Belt of the Merciless Killer
Treads of the Icewalker
Ring of Callous Aggression
Planestalker Signet
Death's Verdict
Comet's Trail
Remorseless
Steel Bladebreaker
Talonstrike
BS/JC
1 Nightmare Tear in the helm, everything else straight ArPen.
All enchants the obvious thing; boots are Cat's Swiftness, not because it's best for sustained DPS but because I suspect we'll find it to be a good idea in general from what I've seen so far.
As a check, fully enchanted and gemmed, this comes out to:
20 Str
1419 Agi
1467 Sta
2645 AP
651 Crit Rating
417 Hit Rating
154 Expertise Rating
194 Haste Rating
1007 ArPen Rating
So, food is ArPen, flask as usual, target fully debuffed, 5/5 Mace Spec, 1/5 CQC, Haste Potion used once in a 5 min fight.
So, at 15/51/5, doing the usual Xs5r5e cycle, this comes out to do 9884.1 DPS. Which is pretty good. But here's where it gets wierd.
If we drop Glyph of Rupture for Glyph of Evis, and 2 points of Blood Spatter and 1 of Ruthlessness to get 3/3 Improved Eviscerate, and then drop Rupture from our cycles entirely and just do Xs5e5e, that number goes up to 9945.0. And if we replace that cycle with the optimal one (which I'll define in a moment), our estimate gets all the way up to 9979.8. (And if we switch to Icewalker on Boots, we crack the 10k mark - 10008.8. But that's sort of a separate issue).
So, what is this optimal cycle? Briefly stated, the priority is to refresh SnD early as little as possible. Hence: we perform an SnD. We then build 5 CPs. If there are 5 seconds or less on SnD, we pool energy as high as we dare, and then refresh SnD. Otherwise, we drop an Evis and start building CPs again. If at any time SnD has less than 2 seconds left, we just refresh it with whatever CPs we have. That is: the priority is to refresh it as late as possible, more so than worrying about how big the SnD winds up being.
Note, of course, that this only works at extremely high gear levels. But assuming you do have said very high gear level, this appears to be optimal.
Don't know if I've worked the spreadsheet realistically, but I've managed to get a rough DPS score of 10456,8 in your spreadsheet (v.1.2.)
That post is pretty dated anyway. But I'd start by doublechecking your talents and verifying that what you have entered is actually possible, as you're using some non-BIS gear there which makes be a bit skeptical that you beat the best known setup by almost 500 DPS. Similarly glyphs and profession-specific benefits.
Doublechecked it, and talents, glyphs and profession-specific benefits are possible. Using JC/Enchanting as Profs. Just noticed that totGC was not being filtered, so I could't choose some of the better gear possible, so now I've managed to reach a Rough DPS of 10751,3.
I'm skeptical, given that in the half of the sheet we can see you already have 4 Dragon's Eyes. But if you'll upload your sheet (or give a screenshot of the bottom half as well so we can see talents, glyphs, and the rest of your gear) that would potentially be interesting.
Gah, I'm posting too fast here, noticed that I could get 3,5DPS (not much, but..) from replacing 3 20ArP gems with 3 20Agi ones, for a total of 10724,5DPS.
Well, there's a couple other very obvious optimizations to make as well; however, when I take the gear exactly as posted and enter it into a clean copy of the 1.2 spreadsheet (swapping to ArPen food to match your ArPen value), I get 9792.1 DPS. Furthermore, I get a different miss rate (7.37%), a different white crit cap (which is related), a different cycle (2.2s5r5e), and significantly different stat weightings. So I'm not really sure what you're seeing. If you'd like to send me a copy of your sheet I'll take a look and try to track down the difference, but I will say at this point I'm not feeling a super-high degree of confidence in your results.
Edit: Having looked at the spreadsheet in question, there were some bugs introduced via user edits that account for most of the difference, with me forgetting to deselect the 4th glyph that the sheet starts with accounting for the rest. The numbers posted in my original post are thus still optimal - or close - for the 1.2 sheet. Note also that you may want to start using the 1.3 betas instead, as they're more accurate and allow things like evis-only rotations and the ArPen nerf to be modeled.
It's pretty bad. The set bonuses are a huge loss and the stat jump between T8.5 and T9.25 isn't really worth it when compared to upgrading weapons, rings, trinkets, etc.
"Aggro" (n): in the Ancient Lordaeranian, a battle cry roughly translating to "Victory and death!"
All of our rogues are passing on the 245 t9 gear, saying its 'bad' ? Can I get a confirm/deny?
For the most part, unless you are stacking the everliving hell out of armor penetration and have several BIS or near BIS offset pieces, going to anything less than 4t9 is probably going to be, at best, a stam upgrade. The 4T8 bonus is incredibly good, the T9 set bonii are incredibly bad, and the stat allocation is... weird.
Well, in my "intermediate BiS" (combat) setup, which includes no loot from 25 heroic (because I'm planning on saving most of my points for T9.258 and heroic Death's Verdict) I include the T9 shoulders and legs even tho I would not take any advantage of the T9 set bonus (Eviscerate-only cycle).
With mutilate i was able to make a setup with T9 helm and shoulders that is 1% ahead of a similar 4T8 setup, but that required replacing every T8 piece with some drops from ToC 10 normal/heroic and 25 normal. So especially for mutilate breaking 4T8 is a very small upgrade and most likely not worth it for the rogues in your guild.
The rogues in your guild will have the same problem, to gain DPS while breaking 4T8 you need to replace at least 3 items, which might be a huge barrier depending on your loot system.
I'm actually reasonably convinced that breaking T8 4/5 requires significant upgrades for all 5 slots, at least for combat. I'm also not sure I'd worry about tier pieces short of T9.258 helm and shoulders to any extent whatsoever. Between the raw DPS calculation and the burst damage benefits, one will very likely go Evis-Only about the same time one breaks 4/5 T8, hence the 2/5 set bonus is useless; and there are numerous good nonset items for a number of slots. For instance, the badge helm and shoulders are both very solid, and there are significant chest upgrades from both 10 and 25 man (Crafted, Calamitous Fate, Shifting Shadows). Legs and hands have somewhat more limited options (hence T9.245 pieces are a reasonable option), but if you can get Broken Beasts legs or the ToC10 gloves, those work as well.
Note additionally that demand for these items is not likely to be particularly high - just rogues and ferals, basically - meaning that, barring a fixed-cost DKP system or the like, they should be reasonably easy to accumulate. For instance, I've broken T8 4/5 using 2 badge pieces, 1 tier token, and 2 items that would otherwise have rotted. So it's very doable to break 4/5 T8 quite quickly - and, I would argue, incredibly worthwhile, as Evis-only cycles have many intangible benefits beyond the obvious DPS consideration.
For Mutilate the situation is admittedly less clear-cut, but the point remains that there's a fair amount of offset 245 gear available, even if it's not ideally itemized for the spec.
I don't have a runestone or grim toll, however the spreadsheet tells me that my AEP for agil is 2.068 and for ArP is 2.3146. The spreadsheet is telling me it would be about a 60dps loss to break my 4 t8 but I figured I would give it a shot out of curiosity. I saw in in game increase sunday night of about 100-200dps depending on the attempt on Anub (he was all we had left) I used ToC10 gloves, Chest of Shifting shadows from ToC10 and 9.25shoulders to break the set along with upgrading boots to treads of the icewalker.
I'm guessing this is due to the encounter mechanics but it was definitely easier to maintain a "cycle" and was quite a bit more fun also. Is it plausible that it is worth it to break t8 sooner than we thought or do I just suck play style wise?
I'm guessing this is due to the encounter mechanics but it was definitely easier to maintain a "cycle" and was quite a bit more fun also. Is it plausible that it is worth it to break t8 sooner than we thought or do I just suck play style wise?
There are a number of different factors that go into your actual dps. Unless you have near perfect latency, ideal raid setup where everyone has 100% uptime on all of their raid buffs, and you play perfectly, you can expect different results in a real fight. Generally I run pretty darn close to the spreadsheet estimate only on fights like Ignis, Patchwerk, Koralon, etc. With that said, though, Anub is also one of the fights that would be more "Eviscerate only" friendly due to the constant switching between mobs and not using rupture nearly as often.
As for knowing when to break your 8.5, as has been stated before in this and other threads, the spreadsheet will give you a rough estimate. It's generally a good idea to go for all 245s in place of your 8.5 before you make the switch, but of course it also depends on the fight. Due to the nature of TOC fights it could probably be argued a switch could actually be made sooner than the spreadsheet suggests.
The spreadsheet tells you what your theoretical sustained DPS is, and no more - it's a useful number to know, to be sure, but there's other considerations on real fights. However, as the fights in every tier of content are different, and people's preferences are different, those other considerations cannot easily be modeled. As such, it is up to each individual user to decide how much theoretical steady-state DPS it's worth sacrificing in the name of an easier cycle, burstier damage, defensive stats, etc. So: look at the damage tradeoffs, and decide for yourself whether you think it's worth it.
I'm actually reasonably convinced that breaking T8 4/5 requires significant upgrades for all 5 slots, at least for combat. I'm also not sure I'd worry about tier pieces short of T9.258 helm and shoulders to any extent whatsoever. Between the raw DPS calculation and the burst damage benefits, one will very likely go Evis-Only about the same time one breaks 4/5 T8, hence the 2/5 set bonus is useless; and there are numerous good nonset items for a number of slots. For instance, the badge helm and shoulders are both very solid, and there are significant chest upgrades from both 10 and 25 man (Crafted, Calamitous Fate, Shifting Shadows). Legs and hands have somewhat more limited options (hence T9.245 pieces are a reasonable option), but if you can get Broken Beasts legs or the ToC10 gloves, those work as well.
\
To be clear, you are referring to the heroic 10 gloves/chest and the heroic 25 broken beasts legs? Or do you think it still might be true with some or all of those normal mode? I'm less talking about the specific DPS #s -- which are easily calculated -- vs. your gut feel on when to make this move, as per the discussion of the general benefits of going ruptureless.
Well, let me put it this way: I'm wearing Badge Helm + Shoulder, T9.245 gloves, 245 beasts legs, and heroic Shifting Shadows chest - i.e., all 5 pieces 245. And I spreadsheet it to be almost a direct sidegrade to 4/5 T8, with the added bonus of 2k HP, better burst, and an easier cycle. I won't swear that that's true for everyone, but there are certainly combinations of that sort that work.
After a search of the forums for Expose Armor with results not pertaining to my inquiry, I'll ask.
These questions pertain specifically to 10 man ToC Heroic and Non-heroic.
These questions also primarily focuses on straight DPS situations, not concerning encounters such as Faction Champs and short burns where Rupture's damage is already shot.
In the absence of a Warrior in the raid, Expose should be applied, so far as I know. However, in a group with only 2 physical dps + tanks (Myself and a hunter), how should Expose be used?
Should it be used on a "replace-eviscerate" basis, or should there be an effort to keep 100% uptime within the Combat rotation?
Also, seeing as it affects a large portion of my damage, specifically in this situation with myself and a hunter, should I be Exposing before a Rupture (assuming the answer to the previous question is the latter option or some related option), or is Rupture absolute priority (with 4/5 t8.5)?
I'm fairly certain Expose takes priority over even Rupture. Raid DPS as a whole benefits more from 100% uptime of a major armor debuff than from 100% of your Rupture if there is even one other DPS class who can benefit from it -- hell, I think there might even be math somewhere around here that shows that your personal DPS benefits from it more than from Rupture, but I'm not totally certain of that in all contexts.
I've read every the whole discussion and after raiding for a while i'm in the situation where Aldriana spreadsheet suggests me to switch to a Evis only rotation.
My simple question is : while i was used to run rupture with 5 CP and SnD with every cp i had when it runs out , how does it work for evis ? should i always wait it gets to 5 cp ? ( and i should replace my glyphs as i'm not using rupture anymore).
I've read every the whole discussion and after raiding for a while i'm in the situation where Aldriana spreadsheet suggests me to switch to a Evis only rotation.
My simple question is : while i was used to run rupture with 5 CP and SnD with every cp i had when it runs out , how does it work for evis ? should i always wait it gets to 5 cp ? ( and i should replace my glyphs as i'm not using rupture anymore).
Are you sure about that? The sheet by default is set to have talent setup of 3/3 Imp Evis, 0/2 Blood Splatter and 2/3 Ruthlessness. Did you change it to the normal 15/51/5 setup to see if High Rupture cycle gives you better dps?
The reason I am asking is that I don't think you are at the gear level where Evis only overtakes High Rupture cycle dps, especially with 4pcT8 still present (as per your armory).
I have two questions about the original "sticky" post. First is the benefits of Jewelcrafting vs. Engineering as it pertains to Rogues in raids. Its obvious that Jewelcrafting doesnt change how you play our class, simply gives us a boost in stats through better JC only gems. But as far as engineering goes, does the glove "enchant" Hyperspeed Accelerator over-ride the enchant Crusher? I would assume it does and also would assume that Crusher is better than Hyperseed. Next is which bombs do rogues use in raiding situations. A fellow guildie told he used Saronite bomb. Does an extra 1150 to 1500 fire damage every min add much extra dps?
Next is a rupture-less build only used when a combat rouge has mostly T9 gear?
The engineering glove enchant is better than crusher. The engineering boot enchant is better than icewalker. And the engineering cloak enchant is better than major agility. The difference on the boot and cloak enchant is very small though, thus making Jewelcrafting the better profession, unless you use bombs every single cooldown. I believe somebody did the math, and if you use bombs on every single cooldown... it comes out to be about 20 dps. (I am not 100% on this value if somebody else knows charm in).
So basically, engineering can only keep up with insane use of bombs, which can get expensive. However, going with engineering gives you a couple cool items, speed boost, slow fall, etc... plus, some good pvp utilities.
As for the rupture-less cycle; there is a lot of talk about this in the combat sheet thread. The only real answer is to plug your gear into the spread sheet and find out. You do not need to have full t9. You either need to not have 4pt8 or have 4+ ilevel 245 items.
I run rupture-less because I do not have 4pt8, but if I were to get my hands on the t8 pants and/or shoulders (I have the gloves in the bank), it would be a huge upgrade to use rupture.
09/15/09, 7:13 AM
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