Pocket Guide to WOTLK (Updated for 3.3) - Page 53

Leonoire · 05/08/09, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by mmlp82

Last I checked these were immune to AOE, BF and KS

interesting I did not know this, our raid was moving vezax away from the vapors to make sure none of the AoE's hit him i assumed so i guessed they could, but i may be wrong.

Regardless, combat for kicks!

Nightbliss · 05/08/09, 8:46 AM

Originally Posted by HENNESSY

...

I pretty much agree with Hennessy here.

In my own experience, theres no fight where I feel that Mutilate is pulling ahead of me that makes me want to switch.
Despite providing decent and competitive DPS, it also provides Savage Combat which in my case, its handy since we don't have a DPS warrior of any sort.

Also, notice that, on most of the fights we are not given Imp WF/Icy Talons.
Heres two reports:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (Kologarn since its not showing on the other report)

Ignis: Straight forward fight. DPS as hard as you can. (Both me and Batto got into the Slag Pot once)

Razorscale: I tend to save my CD's for the land phases (2). Adds die fast as it is.

XT002: We had a bunch of lag during our last XT002 Kill so ignore the parse but, Combat, stack the CD's on the heart.

Kologarn: BF your way in the fight.

Council: Nothing special. I was on kick duty on the parse I posted. Reckon both should perform equally. (We barely have runes on melee)

Cat Lady: I like Combat here, Killing Spree and pre vanishing fears to increase your DPS time on her. (Check our parse)

Thorim: FoK spam on Arena eventhough Mutilate can do the same. I still preffer Combat and so far, from the parses I've seen from our Hard Mode tries, I was pretty much on pair, if not above the Mutilate Rogue.

Hodir: Combat for sure. Cooldown stacking with the buffs. Noway anyone will ever come close to you if you play properly. (My parse was actually crap compared to what I was able to achieve before, rouding ~9000DPS with Naxx25 Gear)

Mimiron: Both Mutilate and Combat should be equally good in my opinion. No cheesy mechanics on this boss that would make Combat come ahead.

Freya: Both should perform well.

Vezax:Both, we rogues in the guild, with Kick duty have been topping with +6000DPS.

Yogg-Saron: Combat. CD's during Brain Phase and FoK for phase 3.

obeah · 05/08/09, 9:50 AM

Hodir - With the crit buff (Storm Powers) maybe HaT can own here.

NoPoint · 05/08/09, 1:14 PM

I'd have to disagree for a certain number of those fights. One of which I'd say would definitely be XT.

parse

I have to mention, there was no windfury that night as our enhancement shaman wasn't able to make it so the numbers are a bit low. I'll have to see if I can dig up another parse from a prior week. I've also had no issues what so ever with thorim in keeping on top of meters.

I do however agree that combat excels on razorscale as well as Kalogarn and Freya. It seems most fights where there's multiple targets, mutilate can have trouble keeping up.

saedo · 05/08/09, 1:56 PM

I would say Mimiron could give a slight edge to combat. P1 and 2 would be even. But P3 you can blow CDs on the head and aoe some adds to start pulling ahead. Then in P4 BF can hit both bottom and middle to obtain even more of a lead.

Sabmiqys · 05/08/09, 2:38 PM

Obviously not too many of you have tried HAT. It dominates on Hodir and XT.

Shuffles · 05/08/09, 3:48 PM

The FAQ says 51/7/13 out preforms 51/13/7 at 4/5 tier 8. With dropping 3 points in Precision what is the new hit cap we should be aiming for?

Joigahdenn · 05/08/09, 4:45 PM

Originally Posted by Shuffles

The FAQ says 51/7/13 out preforms 51/13/7 at 4/5 tier 8. With dropping 3 points in Precision what is the new hit cap we should be aiming for?

Well, losing those 3 points of precision isn't going to put you below the yellow hit cap, and since reaching the absurdly high white hit cap is pretty much impossible with current itemization and talents (aside from practically useless as it would be much better to have agi instead of hit) the only cap really in question is the poison hit cap, which with 5/5 precision is 315 (assuming no raid buffs). With 2/5 precision, you lose 78.6 spell hit (26.2 per point of precision, remember poison hit = spell hit), so you'll want to have ~394 hit unbuffed. If you're in a raid with a boomkin/spriest, you'll want ~315, and if you're lucky enough to have a draenai, you'll want ~289. Keep in mind that these aren't specific numbers you need to reach, as hit's EP is lower than that of agility at these hit levels, so you're fine by being in the ballpark. For specifics on which combination of hit and other stats will put out the best dps, use the spreadsheet listed in the first post in this thread.

Edit: Significant Typo

Tinwhisker · 05/08/09, 4:50 PM

Originally Posted by Shuffles

The FAQ says 51/7/13 out preforms 51/13/7 at 4/5 tier 8. With dropping 3 points in Precision what is the new hit cap we should be aiming for?

Remember, the goal is not to cap out on anything. If you're aiming for the cap, you're doing it wrong. That said, I did this really fast. If I've got a wrong number in there, let me know (I likely do).

Hit Rating

The following values assume that you have 5/5 Precision and that you are attacking a level 83 mob (i.e., boss level).

Extra buffs or debuffs	Specials	Poisons	White
None	99	315	722
Imp FF or Misery	99	237	722
Imp FF or Misery & Heroic Presence (draenei)	66	210	689

The following values assume that you have 2/5 Precision and that you are attacking a level 83 mob (i.e., boss level).

Extra buffs or debuffs	Specials	Poisons	White
None	197	393	820
Imp FF or Misery	197	315	820
Imp FF or Misery & Heroic Presence (draenei)	164	289	787

Edit because my excel sheet floored some values when I told it not to.

chalon · 05/08/09, 4:54 PM

Originally Posted by NoPoint

I'd have to disagree for a certain number of those fights. One of which I'd say would definitely be XT.

parse

I have to mention, there was no windfury that night as our enhancement shaman wasn't able to make it so the numbers are a bit low. I'll have to see if I can dig up another parse from a prior week. I've also had no issues what so ever with thorim in keeping on top of meters.

I do however agree that combat excels on razorscale as well as Kalogarn and Freya. It seems most fights where there's multiple targets, mutilate can have trouble keeping up.

Anecdotal evidence for something like this really isn't valuable. For example, I could link this as evidence that Mutilate beats Combat on XT, but it wouldn't really be honest. There were mitigating circumstances (for instance, I stayed on the boss the entire time, the other rogues moved out to help with a couple of adds and/or because they got debuffed). You also don't take into account gear/ability differences, and so on.

A (slightly) better method is to compare the top parses for fights of a similar length, but even that isn't infallible.

For XT, if a Combat rogue blows all of their cooldowns on the heart phases, and stay on target the whole time, they will beat the Mutilate rogue by a fairly significant margin, since you do 2x damage during the heart phase.

NoPoint · 05/08/09, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by chalon

Anecdotal evidence for something like this really isn't valuable. For example, I could link this as evidence that Mutilate beats Combat on XT, but it wouldn't really be honest. There were mitigating circumstances (for instance, I stayed on the boss the entire time, the other rogues moved out to help with a couple of adds and/or because they got debuffed). You also don't take into account gear/ability differences, and so on.

A (slightly) better method is to compare the top parses for fights of a similar length, but even that isn't infallible.

For XT, if a Combat rogue blows all of their cooldowns on the heart phases, and stay on target the whole time, they will beat the Mutilate rogue by a fairly significant margin, since you do 2x damage during the heart phase.

It's all anecdotal until someone comes provides better evidence. Suggesting combat will beat out mutilate irregardless of gear for any specific fight is not really true. Assuming both are of equal gear and played of equal capability, on a single target fight, both should come out very close providing cd's are blown on a given fight. I've had xt kills go into the 7k dps range as mutilate. I haven't really investigated combat dps on xt, aside from what I've seen our other rogue pull and the claimed parse from the other user. This was simply to state that 5.3k isn't the end all be all of an xt kill. I'm fairly certain someone has plenty higher of an xt parse than I do. By this logic, we could go on quite a while.

Assuming both characters are entirely BiS, at least until they fix negative apen, it's possible that combat will have an edge in terms of a theoretical max on non-murderable bosses.

chalon · 05/08/09, 6:02 PM

However, the case of XT is atypical. It comes down to the heart phases again. For Mutilate in the heart phase, we theoretically can do 2x damage. However, due to the cooldown usage that multiplier goes up for Combat. Given that the baseline starting point for sustained DPS on a non-murderable fight is that Combat is 3 to 3.5% ahead with BiS configurations, it's not really a stretch to infer that Combat may be something like 4 or 5% ahead with optimal CD usage.

NoPoint · 05/08/09, 6:11 PM

That also hinges on the length of the parse. If you DPS the heart well enough, you go from heart phase to heart phase with little down time inbetween and little time for combat to get cooldown time. If it's a lower DPS group, you'll have hang time between heart phases where it's possible for combat to get say a second BF or AR. Mutilate on the other hand will likely do better if there's no cooldown time. There only will be 1 AR per fight given the cooldown on it (unless I missed something in the past few patches with AR cd). You can see the spike from the first heart phase and the dropoff on subsequent heart phases.

qrko · 05/08/09, 8:39 PM

Hello, I'm making rogue alt and I have one question about mutilate spec - there are many situations that i have 5 combo points but only 1-2 doses of deadly poison on target is envenom better than eviscerate in this situation? Cause in first post evisc isn;t mentioned.

Valustria · 05/08/09, 8:47 PM

The answer to your simple question *hint, hint* is yes, you still Envenom. The damage isn't that much lower even with only 1-2 DP stacks, and you want to get the Envenom buff.