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Old 05/11/09, 10:18 PM   #811
Proviso
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Deathwing (EU)
Would you use the Hyperspeed accelerators over crusher on gloves?

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Old 05/11/09, 10:23 PM   #812
Tholofonos
Von Kaiser
 
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Worgen Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Hyperspeed Accelerators, if used on cooldown, have an EP advantage over Crusher. The exact number is elsewhere in one of the threads - try a search for hyperspeed. But that EP advantage is not nearly equal to the bonus other professions impart to their practitioners, so going Engineering just for those is unwise.

Basically, if you want to be Engineering for PVP, you'll still get a PVE bonus from it (in an ideal situation). It's just minimal, compared to those benefits reaped elsewhere.

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Old 05/11/09, 10:39 PM   #813
Grunge
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Rogue
 
Kor'gall (EU)
Originally Posted by Tholofonos View Post
Hyperspeed Accelerators, if used on cooldown, have an EP advantage over Crusher. The exact number is elsewhere in one of the threads - try a search for hyperspeed. But that EP advantage is not nearly equal to the bonus other professions impart to their practitioners, so going Engineering just for those is unwise.

Basically, if you want to be Engineering for PVP, you'll still get a PVE bonus from it (in an ideal situation). It's just minimal, compared to those benefits reaped elsewhere.
I do believe the number was a avg of ~56-57 haste which comes down to 33ep (ie half the value of other professions) upgrade over crusher in aldriana's sheet.

There's also a slight benefit of Saronite bombs on various encounters, such as Freya, Mimiron, Thorim, YS p3, basicly anywhere where you'd normally use FoK.

Not to mention salvaging Chopper parts from FL/XT/Mimiron.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

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Old 05/12/09, 12:18 AM   #814
Okinu
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Ragnaros
Mutilate 51/13/7 (early Ulduar)
51/7/13 (late Ulduar, 4/5 T8)
why the change late of ulduar?

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Old 05/12/09, 12:22 AM   #815
Kaidagar
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Rogue
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Okinu View Post
why the change late of ulduar?
When you have 4 piece 8.5 you gain the set bonus that allows rupture to crit, therefore taking serated blades to enhance the bleed effect is an increase to overall dps.

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Old 05/12/09, 1:52 AM   #816
evoslayer
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Rogue
 
Azjol-Nerub
Since my guild has been running 10 mans as well as 25 particularly to get some practice on the hard modes, I will be able to pick up 4/5 t8 (half of it being 8.5) tomorrow, obviously taking the 4/5 t8 is going to be vastly superior to anything else I can do even if I have to downgrade some of my pieces Item Level and gem for some expertise,

My question is, is the mere presence of the 4/5 bonus enough to merit switching to the 51/7/13 spec, or should I stick with 51/13/7 until I am in full 8.5 and equivalent?

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Old 05/12/09, 1:57 AM   #817
Feist-Mok
Im***est.
 
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Human Rogue
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by evoslayer View Post
Since my guild has been running 10 mans as well as 25 particularly to get some practice on the hard modes, I will be able to pick up 4/5 t8 (half of it being 8.5) tomorrow, obviously taking the 4/5 t8 is going to be vastly superior to anything else I can do even if I have to downgrade some of my pieces Item Level and gem for some expertise,

My question is, is the mere presence of the 4/5 bonus enough to merit switching to the 51/7/13 spec, or should I stick with 51/13/7 until I am in full 8.5 and equivalent?
It's the combination of 4/5 t8, and enough hit from gear to make up the loss of Precision - for most reasonable gearsets, this means 4/5 t8, + Blood of the Old God, but as always, check a spreadsheet to be sure - some are reporting Serrated Blades to pull ahead even in T7 gear.

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Old 05/12/09, 2:42 AM   #818
Joigahdenn
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Cenarius
Originally Posted by evoslayer View Post
Since my guild has been running 10 mans as well as 25 particularly to get some practice on the hard modes, I will be able to pick up 4/5 t8 (half of it being 8.5) tomorrow, obviously taking the 4/5 t8 is going to be vastly superior to anything else I can do even if I have to downgrade some of my pieces Item Level and gem for some expertise,

My question is, is the mere presence of the 4/5 bonus enough to merit switching to the 51/7/13 spec, or should I stick with 51/13/7 until I am in full 8.5 and equivalent?
Originally Posted by Feist-Mok View Post
It's the combination of 4/5 t8, and enough hit from gear to make up the loss of Precision - for most reasonable gearsets, this means 4/5 t8, + Blood of the Old God, but as always, check a spreadsheet to be sure - some are reporting Serrated Blades to pull ahead even in T7 gear.
Actually, even with complete t7 BiS the 51/7/13 spec already comes out ahead by about 20-25dps, without changing any of the agi gems to hit.

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Old 05/12/09, 7:04 AM   #819
samsah
Glass Joe
 
n/a
Blood Elf Warrior
 
No WoW Account
got a question about energy pooling:
I read somewhere in arena junkies that it is worthwhile to pool energy for mutilate after envenom,was wondering if it is the way everyone does? Because it seems my dps drops if I wait and pool for mutilate,that's the impression I got.Once I stop doing that and just hit envenom whenever it's up,my dps goes back up again. I'm 51/13/7 and following the rotation on the first page and didn't let energy cap in both cases

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Old 05/12/09, 7:40 AM   #820
zion9
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Blackrock
Got a quick question regarding AP vs AGI. I seen some posts stating that AGI gems are better than AP gems with Ulduar gear and the 4 piece rupture crit bonus. But I've also heard that AP is better than AGI because they raised the AP scaling of Deadly Poison and the 2 set bonus is pretty decent. So my question would be, what gems would be better after expertise capped, for combat, mutilate, and HaT?

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Old 05/12/09, 9:23 AM   #821
ieatpaperbag
Piston Honda
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Eonar
Originally Posted by zion9 View Post
Got a quick question regarding AP vs AGI. I seen some posts stating that AGI gems are better than AP gems with Ulduar gear and the 4 piece rupture crit bonus. But I've also heard that AP is better than AGI because they raised the AP scaling of Deadly Poison and the 2 set bonus is pretty decent. So my question would be, what gems would be better after expertise capped, for combat, mutilate, and HaT?
Until you have 4pc t8, 2AP will almost always be slightly better then 1AGI especially with a Mutilate spec because the crit chance for poisons is not increased by the physical crit chance provided by agility. They did increase the AP coefficient on deadly poison from 0.08 to 0.12 in 3.1 though increasing your AP doesn't take more advantage or increase the benefit of 2pc t8. Your deadly poison simply needs to tick and damage a target to utilize the bonus. For combat, I wouldn't strain for the expertise cap, there isn't a huge benefit for it since you will have Surprise Attacks. In the case of mutilate this has been recently discussed in some of the other threads if you want more detail, but point for point expertise is worth less then AGI or 2AP though you can run very tight cycles knowing your envenom cannot be dodged.

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Old 05/12/09, 9:43 AM   #822
zion9
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by ieatpaperbag View Post
Until you have 4pc t8, 2AP will almost always be slightly better then 1AGI especially with a Mutilate spec because the crit chance for poisons is not increased by the physical crit chance provided by agility. They did increase the AP coefficient on deadly poison from 0.08 to 0.12 in 3.1 though increasing your AP doesn't take more advantage or increase the benefit of 2pc t8. Your deadly poison simply needs to tick and damage a target to utilize the bonus. For combat, I wouldn't strain for the expertise cap, there isn't a huge benefit for it since you will have Surprise Attacks. In the case of mutilate this has been recently discussed in some of the other threads if you want more detail, but point for point expertise is worth less then AGI or 2AP though you can run very tight cycles knowing your envenom cannot be dodged.
Let's say you have your 4/5 t8 and are expertise capped in both mutilate and for combat. I've read on the forums that socketing for Agility is better due to ruptures critting. I guess what I'm asking is, after you have most ulduar BiS items, when does agility become better than attack power. I know i've read it somewhere on these forums but cant find it atm. And also wasn't sure with the DP change, if AP would be better in the long run. Thanks for the reply.

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Old 05/12/09, 9:50 AM   #823
ieatpaperbag
Piston Honda
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Eonar
Originally Posted by zion9 View Post
Let's say you have your 4/5 t8 and are expertise capped in both mutilate and for combat. I've read on the forums that socketing for Agility is better due to ruptures critting. I guess what I'm asking is, after you have most ulduar BiS items, when does agility become better than attack power. I know i've read it somewhere on these forums but cant find it atm. And also wasn't sure with the DP change, if AP would be better in the long run. Thanks for the reply.
Given what you have described, AGI is better to socket for then AP as soon as you have 4pc t8 (you do not need to have BiS Ulduar gear) because the chance for Rupture to crit is based on your physical crit chance which is increased by AGI.

To provide some numbers, Aldriana's combat spreadsheet estimated AGI at a EP value of 1.9486 when I had 3/5 t8 and then the value changed to 2.0303 when I got 4/5 t8 (2AP is worth 2.000).

Last edited by ieatpaperbag : 05/12/09 at 10:11 AM. Reason: added some EP values/numbers changed in spreadsheet update

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Old 05/12/09, 9:53 AM   #824
zion9
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by ieatpaperbag View Post
Given what you have described, AGI is better to socket for then AP as soon as you have 4pc t8 (you do not need to have BiS Ulduar gear) because the chance for Rupture to crit is based on your physical crit chance which is increased by AGI.
Thanks for your reply. Much appreciated good sir!

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Old 05/12/09, 1:58 PM   #825
Vargen@Terenas
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Terenas
Fan of Knives

I use my dual-spec to play around, our casual raiding guild is having problems on Razorscale, so I am going to try Combat Fist/Daggers with throwing specialization (FoK interrupt), and FoK glyph (20% damage). I understand that I lose some single target dps compared to Mutilate, but the AoE dps appears to more than make up for it (and interrupts are nice too), and I can switch back to mutilate before/between bosses, depending on the fight (gonna re-gem for AP or Agil I think - expertise was kinda nice for smooth Mutilate rotation, but AP/Agil should help my overall dps no matter the spec).

Completely unbuffed, on the 2 lvl 80 training dummies in IF, I was pulling 3K with just auto-attack and FoK. In 5 man heroic AK:OK (ie minimal buffs) where I tested it, it seemed very viable, interrupting the casters and giving me 5+K dps through the trash. I was originally planning on playing with HaT or PvP Muti/Prep, but with the chain lightnings in razorscale giving us trouble, I thought I'd try this. Has anyone else played with this spec?

On a side note, I <3 the XT heart. As Mutilate I was getting 6+K dps as an overall average for the XT fight. I believe I read that the XT heart has no armor, I have no ArP, except for Grim Toll, so if my grim toll procs, is it possible to send armor into the negative?

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