Pocket Guide to WOTLK (Updated for 3.3) - Page 56

Kryptyx · 05/12/09, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Vargen@Terenas

I use my dual-spec to play around, our casual raiding guild is having problems on Razorscale, so I am going to try Combat Fist/Daggers with throwing specialization (FoK interrupt), and FoK glyph (20% damage). I understand that I lose some single target dps compared to Mutilate, but the AoE dps appears to more than make up for it (and interrupts are nice too), and I can switch back to mutilate before/between bosses, depending on the fight (gonna re-gem for AP or Agil I think - expertise was kinda nice for smooth Mutilate rotation, but AP/Agil should help my overall dps no matter the spec).

Completely unbuffed, on the 2 lvl 80 training dummies in IF, I was pulling 3K with just auto-attack and FoK. In 5 man heroic AK:OK (ie minimal buffs) where I tested it, it seemed very viable, interrupting the casters and giving me 5+K dps through the trash. I was originally planning on playing with HaT or PvP Muti/Prep, but with the chain lightnings in razorscale giving us trouble, I thought I'd try this. Has anyone else played with this spec?

On a side note, I <3 the XT heart. As Mutilate I was getting 6+K dps as an overall average for the XT fight. I believe I read that the XT heart has no armor, I have no ArP, except for Grim Toll, so if my grim toll procs, is it possible to send armor into the negative?

My offspec is setup with Throwing Specialization to help with Thorim's arena phase. My DPS remained on top for the entire fight with the spec, even after he landed I would just play Combat Daggers to finish the fight. I think that most guilds who are having issues with the AOE fights should look at having a Rogue spec into Throwing Specialization just to see if it helps. I had over 300 interrupts in Thorims fight alone (according to recount). I also did try it on XT and my DPS remained high so overall I am satisfied with the spec...

On a side note, If you ever run Naxx-25 - have your tank pull all 5 groups in Grand Widow Faerlina's room. Enjoy being over 40k DPS

(Yes, I know trash does not matter... especially Naxx trash).

Acaelus · 05/12/09, 3:17 PM

If Arpen really does work that way currently, in regards to pulling armor into the negative to give damage boosts, I wouldn't be surprised to see it altered at some point soon. Resist mechanics for spells used to work very similarly back in pre-TBC eras if you remember, with warlock resist curses giving huge boosts in damage when you started to bring mob resists into the negative. I wouldn't be shocked to see Arpen nerfed in a manner similar to how that was.

Ticia · 05/12/09, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by Acaelus

If Arpen really does work that way currently, in regards to pulling armor into the negative to give damage boosts, I wouldn't be surprised to see it altered at some point soon. Resist mechanics for spells used to work very similarly back in pre-TBC eras if you remember, with warlock resist curses giving huge boosts in damage when you started to bring mob resists into the negative. I wouldn't be shocked to see Arpen nerfed in a manner similar to how that was.

It's actually an expected behavior and not one that they are overly worried about, at least from the sounds of this blue post: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Armor Penetratation - Lack of a Cap?

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

There is no cap on the amount of armor pen from which you can benefit. More points of armor pen always give you more damage (in the way more AP always gives you more damage, but more hit does not).

We are familiar with some of the theorycrafting for how great armor pen might be for fully Ulduar-geared melee. We're not worried about it yet because it's a big improvement over armor pen being a junk stat, which is where it was for many until recently.

This also seems to support the idea that Armor pen will continue to be effective right up to the asymptote, which isn't attainable by any gear right now.

Enduro · 05/12/09, 4:27 PM

Hello!

I've combed through this massive thread and I'm fairly certain I've come to the conclusion I wanted, but need verification.

The algorithm presented for Combat DPS is to essentially keep Slice and Dice and Rupture up always, only Eviscerating when both of these have a reasonable time left. (You will be able to build 5 combo points before either has expired)

So if I find myself in a situation where Slice and Dice is at around 20 seconds and Rupture is around 7 and I'm near 5 combo points, I shouldn't Eviscerate since if I do that Rupture will run out and I'll be a few combo points short of starting it again?

It would seem that there won't be many opportunities to Eviscerate then? Mainly during AR's and lucky Sinister Strike combo procs?

Joigahdenn · 05/12/09, 5:17 PM

Originally Posted by Enduro

Hello!

I've combed through this massive thread and I'm fairly certain I've come to the conclusion I wanted, but need verification.

The algorithm presented for Combat DPS is to essentially keep Slice and Dice and Rupture up always, only Eviscerating when both of these have a reasonable time left. (You will be able to build 5 combo points before either has expired)

So if I find myself in a situation where Slice and Dice is at around 20 seconds and Rupture is around 7 and I'm near 5 combo points, I shouldn't Eviscerate since if I do that Rupture will run out and I'll be a few combo points short of starting it again?

It would seem that there won't be many opportunities to Eviscerate then? Mainly during AR's and lucky Sinister Strike combo procs?

I've been thinking about this a lot recently as I switched back to combat myself. My first suggestion would be to go to the Combat and Mutilate Spreadsheets threat, download the Combat spreadsheet, and enter your gear. Once you've done that, the sheet give out a pretty accurate DPS estimate, along with a good recommendation for cycle (note that 3.2s means you'll normally be hitting SnD with 3 CPs but 1/5 times you'll probably end up with a 4 point SnD, if I understand the sheet correctly). Now, that cycle is something you want to aim for while in a raid setting, but keep in mind that it is variable to change, with extra CPs from SS crits etc.

So, that being said, my suggestion would be to try actively "plan" your next few SnD and Rupture finishers in advance while using Evis as somewhat of a CP dump. In your example, I would have dumped my points into eviscerate when rupture hit about ~10 seconds, no matter how many CPs I have. By doing this, you allow yourself enough time to generate another 5cps so that you can refresh rupture as soon as it runs out. Depending on how tight you run your cycle, you might need a little less than 10 seconds to generate those 5cps, in which case I generally just pool energy until rupture runs out (granted you're not close to capping out).

robfang · 05/12/09, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by Enduro

Hello!

I've combed through this massive thread and I'm fairly certain I've come to the conclusion I wanted, but need verification.

The algorithm presented for Combat DPS is to essentially keep Slice and Dice and Rupture up always, only Eviscerating when both of these have a reasonable time left. (You will be able to build 5 combo points before either has expired)

So if I find myself in a situation where Slice and Dice is at around 20 seconds and Rupture is around 7 and I'm near 5 combo points, I shouldn't Eviscerate since if I do that Rupture will run out and I'll be a few combo points short of starting it again?

It would seem that there won't be many opportunities to Eviscerate then? Mainly during AR's and lucky Sinister Strike combo procs?

If it does not prevent you from keeping rupture or slice and dice up, you should eviscerate whenever you find eviscerate deals more damage than sinister strike on per energy basis. According to my calculations, 3cp Eviscerate out dpses Sinister Strike marginally for 2/5 Relentless Strikes or greatly for 5/5 Relentless Strikes. 4pc Tier 7 bonus does not change this break-even point. (The calculations are done for T7.25 level gear). Thus, you can safely eviscerate with 3cps if the timers of rupture or slice and dice are running out.

Edit: Changed the calculations according to Aldriana's comment on AP multiplier of Eviscerate as 0.35.

obeah · 05/12/09, 5:50 PM

Forgive my ignorance but poison with a PPM system still have benefits from sword specialization / double swing? (Like more procs)

Clockwerk · 05/12/09, 7:59 PM

A few quick and easy COMBAT rogue questions.
1. Is it possible to envenom too often.
2. Has the idea of a 7/51/13 spec for 4pc t8 been debunked?
3. Shouldn't the 4+ combo point rule apply to combat rogues as well?

Thanks for your time, hope none of these questions are a repeat i've attempted to research as much as i can on my own.

• Aldriana · 05/12/09, 8:07 PM

1) You shouldn't be using Envenom at all as Combat.
2) Yes.
3) Because Sinister Strike only gives 1-2 CP rather than 2-3.

mdn · 05/12/09, 8:13 PM

Originally Posted by Clockwerk

A few quick and easy COMBAT rogue questions.
1. Is it possible to envenom too often.
2. Has the idea of a 7/51/13 spec for 4pc t8 been debunked?
3. Shouldn't the 4+ combo point rule apply to combat rogues as well?

Thanks for your time, hope none of these questions are a repeat i've attempted to research as much as i can on my own.

1. You shouldn't be Envenoming as combat
2. Yes, 7/51/13 does not scale as well as 15/51/5, and the various spreadsheets and models reflect this.
3. Generally, you TRY to run a 3/5/5 cycle, but the cycle is based on a few variables and doesn't hold for everything.

Venomous · 05/12/09, 9:31 PM

Originally Posted by mdn

3. Generally, you TRY to run a 3/5/5 cycle, but the cycle is based on a few variables and doesn't hold for everything.

Are you using SnD Glyph, because I'm having a difficult time keeping a 2-3s/5t/5e rotation - I occasionally let Rupture drop to get a 5 Evis off but I'm assuming thats bad practice? I should be aiming to ALWAYS have SnD and Rupture up with ANY extras going into an Evis (normally through AR) or is it allowed to let Rupture drop to account for a 5 Evis?

With out 4pc T8 I think having SnD and Rupture up at all times is vitally important, was even thinking of switching to a 5s/5r rotation? Currently using KS, SS and Rupture Glyphs

Farz · 05/13/09, 4:40 AM

4s/5r/4e is the cycle if you use KS instead of SnD glyph.

Mideci · 05/13/09, 5:20 AM

Originally Posted by Farz

4s/5r/4e is the cycle if you use KS instead of SnD glyph.

To continue and "right turn" that thought. I don't run SnD glyph as combat and in fact find myself varying between 4s/5r/5e and a greatly truncated 2s/5r type cycle when there are fight interruptions.

But I've concluded that the steady-state DPS benefit of the KS glyph is beneficial, but I'm not running it anyway. I find there are enough fights where the Fan of Knives glyph benefits during the fight and at this point I'm not ready to spend two specs on combat.

Already, I find Killing Spree nerve wracking on Mimiron (since you can wind up in a place you don't want to be) and out of the question on Kologarn. And the other fights? Well, it's good of course, but since what the glyph does is reduce the cooldown and given the downtime / non-optimal uses of KS (Razorscale adds for example), that's not always automatically compelling.

Granted, neither in Fan.. But Fan affects your damage output on Freya, Razorscale, Thorim, situationally on Hodir, cleanup on XT. To me, that capabilty, net-net, is a winner over the KS cooldown reduction. I have seriously considered carrying stacks of each glyph and swapping between them a few times, but right now, I'm not sure about how many times a night that would happen.

Farz · 05/13/09, 5:43 AM

Sure it depends on the fight. But for raw dps on PW like encounters KS is the best glyph.

I've been working on hardmodes a lot, down a good bunch of them and KS is oftenly the best glyph to use, FoK will up your dps on adds on Razorscale, Thorim and Freya. Ok its cool to get a better rank in the DPS meter by using the glyph but it is only really efficient on Freya. The DPS on Thorim (HardMode) and Razorscale themselves is what matter on those fights.

On Mimiron HM that can be a real problem if flames pop behind him, so there you can use Glyph of TotT.

But KS is really the best option as a glyph for efficiency, if you want to pose on the DPS meter use FoK.

Antiarc · 05/13/09, 7:03 AM

I'm doing some work writing a mod to track internal cooldowns, and I've made the startling discovery that Berserking doesn't stack. I'd thought it did, at least at one point, but I'm very certain right now that they don't. It simply refreshes the duration. Additionally, in my testing, both hands reliably procced within 3-4 seconds of each other, which means severely diminished benefits from the second proc.

I'd assume this means that Berserking/Mongoose is the preferred enchant combo, but I'd like some confirmation or something that I'm not crazy. Did Berserking stack at one point, or have I just been horribly misinformed?

Edit: I'm just crazy. It was the same hand re-proccing. It seems the proc rate is just odd or something - it took me quite some time to get a double proc, but I was apparently re-proccing the same hand quite rapidly, suggesting that there is no ICD on the proc - merely a PPM. I was under the delusion that it had a 45-sec ICD, but that appears to not be the case.