Is there a point where item value > expertise in an evis only hack and slash build? I'm finding my spreadsheet
showing increases in my potential dps when swapping out gear that i've been using to hit the expertise cap with a
greater item valued peice. Specifically the bloodfang hood vs the t9.5 helm where the helm puts me near cap while the hood shows 80 higher dps. Is this because the few dodges don't matter as much in my combat spec?
Confused and looking for help.

As combat, dodges don't mean a whole bunch in terms of cycle instability. Since rogue is one of the few classes that is energy capped rather than GCD capped, losing a GCD here and there is irrelevant. Also, due to talents (surprise strikes) and the nature of combo point generating abilities, dodges represent a minor loss of energy (combo point generators) or are unable to be dodged altogether(finishers). All you'll see in using the expertise items over 'better' items is that your DPS will be more stable rather than spikier in shorter bursts of combat. In the end, for long fights like raid bosses, it won't matter much.

The bottom line is: If the spreadsheet tells you it is better, it probably is.

I just want to confirm that for combat, in BiS gear, with weapon swapping (which I doubt is in Blizzard's category of working as intended), haste, expertise and hit gain a lot of value. Based on the simsheet, the best dps for combat is achieved by gaining expertise cap (guarranteed in BiS gear), gaining white hit cap (through generous itemization of hit and proper gemming), and prioritizing haste through gemming. Red gems are best filled with ap/haste provided you are hit capped through other means.

I'll track down the exact post but a blizzard poster just stated that they aren't too worried about it at the moment, because they are finding that most people find it more hassle than it's worth, but that they are still keeping an eye on it. He also reiterated if it became the norm, they would step in.

Ok I have read time and time again people asking about Exp. There seems to be a lot of people saying it’s not that important. Well I would have to disagree. Sure with the general combat spec your finisher will hit but your sinister strike may not. A sinister strike is going to give you 1-2 combo points with glyph and cost you 40 energy. I am sorry but that is just more than I am willing to loose. Besides there are lots of item in the game that do have exp on them that if you want to use the non tier items you can and still be capped.

Sinister strike does not cost 40 energy when it fails to hit, it costs something like 20% of that, I dont know the exact number, if you need proof put on a weapon you have low skill in and spam sinister strike on a target dummy.

Only dodged finishers have a significant cost in terms of energy.

A few questions (I am not BIS yet):

As long as I can keep EXP at 26, there is no need for 2/2 Weapon Expertise, so I can use those two points elsewhere, correct?

Should I try to keep HIT at 315 regardless of whether I may have a Draenei, Druid, or Shadow Priest in my group? Or should I shoot for 237 assuming there should be at least one of those?

If I have only a Draenei in my group (no Druid or SPriest), what is the HIT cap?

Thank you.

With only Draenei your hit cap is 289, and with both it's 210.

Never assume you will have one of those in your group. Always keep your bases covered by going for 315 (which is really very easy as you get higher level gear).
And yes, if you have 26 expertise, you can put those points elsewhere.

well even if it is 20%, it is still a loss on combo points plus the swing global. Any time you decide to under stat your char in hopes of good RNG is bad.

When you plug your gear into a spreadsheet, its accounting for dodged white attacks/SS, and then telling you that having those dodged attacks cost less dps than undodged attacks that hit/crit for less due to the loss of other stats (I realize this is totally oversimplified, much more goes into the calculation than just these few factors, I'm just making a simple point). There are numerous posts about expertise in these forums, some are more accurate than others, and those that are accurate are likely the ones based on numbers taken from those spreadsheets. I would trust the spreadsheet on a matter like this rather than your personal intuition, because unless someone has reported a major bug the spreadsheet should be the best tool to gauge whether you should gear for expertise or other stats.

That being said, there are setups in which expertise seems to pull ahead quite a bit, but again, using a spreadsheet (or the simsheet) will give you the most accurate answer.

1) Yes, dodged Sinister Strikes reduce your overall combo point generation. That is already considered in the mathematical models and it is not enough to make expertise rating better than agility or AP.

2) The loss of a global cooldown is irrelevant. Rogue DPS is limited by energy, not by GCD.

3) No one is expecting good RNG, they are expecting average RNG. That's a very important difference. We aren't sitting here saying "boy as long as I luck out and none of my abilities get dodged, I'm going to do tons of damage!" What we are saying is "I know on average X% of my abilities will be dodged, but that is OK because the abilities that do land will do more damage to offset the difference."

Mavanas, would you say the same for Mutilate? Because I'm seeing a lot of mutilate rogues on my server that are aiming for white hit cap for some reason. I was always under the impression that after 315 you get a better value from other stats?

AP, AG, and haste are ahead of hit rating for mutilate with weapon swapping in BiS gear.

I've been seeing a lot of top rogues recommending for combat going with a straight Evis build and removing rupture from your rotation. I am reluctant to get no value from my Tier 9 two set bonus and am unable to find the proc rate for the set bonus to determine if I should just go without it.

Generally the decision to switch to an evisc-only cycle is made when its theoretical dps is very close to that of a rupture-based cycle. An evisc-only build generally provides better burst damage, and is easier to play optimally than a rupture-based build.

The 2pc T9 has about a 2% proc rate I believe.

As far as I'm aware, the switch from Rupture to Evis cycles is determined by a couple of things.

Mainly; reaching the point with your stats that evis will out damage rupture. You may find (as I did) its about the point where you have 3-4 i245 items. Also, dropping the T8 Rupture Bonus significantly reduces your rupture damage and contributes to Evis out performing it.

The 4pc T9 is also pretty abysmal, and the stats from i245 t9 pieces is no where near as good as other off set items.

You will probably find that using 3-4 i245 non t9 items will be required to swap out T8 and break into Evis only cycles. As mentioned below however, use a spreadsheet to determine the exact beneficiary breaking point.

It's been like two or three days since I really checked the rogue forum and I come back to see a bunch of skeptics (and that's the most polite word I could use for them) questioning the spreadsheets and ideas of those who are better than them and/or care enough to actually do the math and share their efforts and findings with the rest of us.

I hope this doesn't come off as backseat moderation, but as a request from someone who appreciates intelligent, worthwhile discussion here... can people please stop doubting everything or commenting on things that they don't fully understand without first doing some back reading, spreadsheet checking, and maybe even asking for clarification if necessary? I mean, we have a Simple Questions / Simple Answers thread where you can seek further elaboration on some of the more basic topics, like specs and stat weight, after you have at least searched for the answers by yourself. Nobody should have to explain outside that thread why the way you gemmed back in Burning Crusade no longer yields the best damage in T9+ gear.

Question with my rogue...Ideally the MH is slow and OH is fast. Would it be feasable to go with 2 slow weapons..The grinder [The Grinder]

I'm not sure on the mechanics, but with combat spec maces..KS and then shiv to stack deadly poisons, then continue rotation. I believe the reason for a fast OH is for the poison application. Thanks for your input.

The biggest reason (though not the only one) for a fast OH is Combat Potency, which regenerates energy. No, it's not really feasible to go with 2 slow weapons.

i dont think wep swapping is viable for combat at this point. also, being white hit capped is a silly use of sockets, as you could be putting agi/haste gems in there instead

I wrote an addon to automate weapon swapping. Just poison your two offhands with deadly and instant/wound as appropriate and the addon handles everything else. It'll swap to your instant/wound offhand when you have 5 stacks of deadly and 5+ seconds left on the stack, then swap back to deadly if you don't have a 5-stack, or have less than 5 seconds left on your stack. It's as fire-and-forget as they come - no setting up equipment sets, no special bag positioning, no telling it which weapons you want to use. It finds the right weapon to equip based on which one is poisoned and swaps it in and out when appropriate.

PoisonSwapper - Addons - Curse

Give it a go, break it, let me know how it works.