Pocket Guide to WOTLK (Updated for 3.3) - Page 60

chalon · 05/18/09, 9:12 PM

I would argue that post the ArP cap, the numbers generally favor running Combat for non-Murderable and/or distinct burst fights, whereas for longer and Murderable fights, Mutilate will be sufficiently ahead to use. So if you're really optimizing it, you would switch from fight to fight. However, it's pretty clear that in Ulduar, more fights favor Combat than Mutilate...so if you're sticking with only one spec, Combat is the way to go.

That's not to say Mutilate is terrible by any means -- it's still usually very competitive on even the "bad" fights. However, there are certainly times where you get sad you have no cooldowns to stack.

The fight-by-fight breakdown has already been discussed extensively in multiple threads, so I don't think that needs to be rehashed.

Tinwhisker · 05/18/09, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by chalon

That's not to say Mutilate is terrible by any means -- it's still usually very competitive on even the "bad" fights. However, there are certainly times where you get sad you have no cooldowns to stack.

I've been jones'ing for Mutilate to have a cooldown since 3.0 but I just don't see it happening. Mainly because it is viable/competitive as is and placement of a cooldown ability has PvP implications that I don't think Blizzard has the stomach to deal with right now.

I would like to point out though that all this talk of Combat over Mutilate and vice versa for fights in Ulduar assumes BiS gear for each and optimal conditions/timing. (It seems that people often forget that caveat.) It's been said before and I really don't think it's emphasized enough that sub-BiS gear in one will not usually trump BiS gear for the other (Combat has a chance with great cooldown timing sometimes). And the difference between the two on quite a few fights is within what the RNG could produce.

It should also be noted that most (if not all) of the hard-mode fights do not require full BiS gear to complete. If they did, then no 25man hard modes would be yet completed. And since many have been completed without T8 BiS gear I think that's a fair assumption that there's some leeway in there.

As raids gear up the bar lowers for many of these fights. 25man Naxx gear paved the way for many of the quick hard-mode kills in 10man Ulduar. When 25man Ulduar gear becomes more prevalent in guilds the 25man hard modes will fall as well.

gfailure · 05/19/09, 3:03 AM

With 3.1.2 hitting this week, i noticed that Remorse is getting a speed change, it goes from 1.6 speed to 1.5 speed and its damage changed accordingly to keep the 178,7dps.

Even though it is still 0.1 slower that Rune-Edged, does this change maybe make it competitive or even hands down better than Rune-Edged now?

Haven't run any simulations yet, but maybe someone already did in PTR or something?

saedo · 05/19/09, 3:55 AM

Originally Posted by gfailure

With 3.1.2 hitting this week, i noticed that Remorse is getting a speed change, it goes from 1.6 speed to 1.5 speed and its damage changed accordingly to keep the 178,7dps.

Even though it is still 0.1 slower that Rune-Edged, does this change maybe make it competitive or even hands down better than Rune-Edged now?

Haven't run any simulations yet, but maybe someone already did in PTR or something?

Changing the stats on it in Aldriana's spreadsheet I get it a 1 EP behind Rune-Etched. So equivalent sidegrade it seems.

Also, the buff to Void Sabre apparently makes it top sword, have it 23 EP above the others.

Also, the AP on Malice is doubled to 76 AP, which seems to make it about equiv to Insanity's Grip.

mdn · 05/19/09, 5:57 AM

Originally Posted by saedo

Changing the stats on it in Aldriana's spreadsheet I get it a 1 EP behind Rune-Etched. So equivalent sidegrade it seems.

Also, the buff to Void Sabre apparently makes it top sword, have it 23 EP above the others.

Also, the AP on Malice is doubled to 76 AP, which seems to make it about equiv to Insanity's Grip.

More interesting is the change of Stonerender from 1.6 to 1.5, increasing the viability of combat maces.

Flerixa · 05/19/09, 6:57 AM

I've also noticed that nothing is said regarding changing the mechanics on armor pen in the patch notes. Unless im missing it somewhere.

Burgah · 05/20/09, 5:24 PM

I still think that engineering should be added to the best proffesions list, especially considering the usage of saronite bombs which do an average of 1350 damage on a 1 min cd in a 5 yard radius, that is also off the GCD. Which can also crit and with further testing i will find if it works with spell enhancing debuffs on your target.

chalon · 05/20/09, 6:01 PM

You can try to justify it all you want, but Engineering is strictly inferior to the vast majority of the other professions for raiding.

Enduro · 05/20/09, 6:17 PM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

I've been jones'ing for Mutilate to have a cooldown since 3.0 but I just don't see it happening.

Cold Blood! Okay, maybe not the most exciting CD ever...

The spec is great as is I feel. You have plenty to do and different options on how to do it. Between balancing Envenoms and Ruptures (with HfB and S&D on varying CD's) as well as TotT every 30 seconds...you already have a lot to watch out for (especially if you're not Expertise capped...can really screw with timing and predictability). It's manageable and simple but yet it can get complex and 1 move can screw it all up.

Combat is very different and is a CD centric build that relies on perfect timing of CD's to maximize DPS. Other than that it's a very predictable style of play.

Damntastic · 05/20/09, 6:29 PM

Is Firs weapon + dagger always superior above double swords, currently using Malice and Remorse

innova · 05/20/09, 7:35 PM

Originally Posted by Damntastic

Is Firs weapon + dagger always superior above double swords, currently using Malice and Remorse

According to the spreadsheet with 4piece 8.5 and mostly BiS from T7 those swords are still behind CG/WD combo. This is unfortunate that itemization is so bad that 2xilvl 232 weapons are 20 dps behind the previous tier weapons. Should have checked the spreadsheet before wasting a little dkp.

*edit* It may not be poor itemization but that in combination with sword spec...seems that it is falling behind a bit.

Joigahdenn · 05/20/09, 8:25 PM

Originally Posted by innova

According to the spreadsheet with 4piece 8.5 and mostly BiS from T7 those swords are still behind CG/WD combo. This is unfortunate that itemization is so bad that 2xilvl 232 weapons are 20 dps behind the previous tier weapons. Should have checked the spreadsheet before wasting a little dkp.

*edit* It may not be poor itemization but that in combination with sword spec...seems that it is falling behind a bit.

I'm not quite sure how you come to those numbers. When I replace Malice and Remorse with GC/WD in my spreadsheet, I get a dps loss, even without the changes to the new weapons (assuming t8 4/5 and various easy to obtain t8 Ulduar pieces thrown into the mix. Are you sure you're switching from Sword Spec to CQC and back? Honestly, it makes sense that higher ilvl weapons would do more damage, and as far as I can tell from the SS (and previous posts), the swords generally do yield higher dps, the changes in 3.1.2 would only increase that difference.

Grunge · 05/20/09, 8:31 PM

Originally Posted by innova

*edit* It may not be poor itemization but that in combination with sword spec...seems that it is falling behind a bit.

It actually is, check Serilas/Void Sabre.

Clockwerk · 05/20/09, 8:58 PM

Edited out because i found my answer on the ToT Glyph in the recent changes thread. (Btw it's the same)

Pillion · 05/21/09, 4:50 AM

So of the two, Remorse and Rune-Etched Nightblade, which is the better of the two?