Pocket Guide to WOTLK (Updated for 3.3) - Page 63

Sabmiqys · 05/26/09, 3:21 PM

It looks as if it's largely an itemization issue. There just seem to be more options for combat spec atm. If you're lucky and land a Daschal's Bite to go with a Golem-Shard or Boot Blade, mutilate pulls ahead on the spreadsheet with 4-piece T8. Even so it's going to be situational. Dual raid specs ftw.

Pinch · 05/26/09, 4:12 PM

Originally Posted by chalon

I dunno...it depends what your comfort level with the spec. I honestly am so familiar playing Mutilate that I actually feel like it would be detrimental to the raid if I went combat. I can play combat perfectly fine, but I just feel very comfortable playing Mutilate. I don't eat any environmental effects due to the timers, because it's just second nature at this point. And I seem to do just as well as the Combat rogues do on most fights, so I do feel like Mutilate gets a bit of a bad rap at this point.

From personal experience, Combat out-performs Mutilate the first few nights of hardmode learning (specifically freya). Once everyone gets more comfortable with it though, Mutilate is usually the winner.

I'm quite comfortable with Mutilate as well and I consider it my primary spec, but I often go combat for new content simply because it has cooldowns and it's easier to keep an eye on the raid to get a grasp of the entire fight when you don't have to worry about perfect times to Envenom for max dps. I quite like knowing what everyone is doing!

Sneakymugs · 05/27/09, 12:16 AM

So I was reading these forums when yet another poster said that fist / sword was no longer viable. That had me thinking. So I thought to myself that with hit cap so easy to achieve what if I used those talent points and the filler points from the standard 15 - 51 - 5 spec and put them into sword. The result is this build.

http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...00000000000000

This build has no filler point and every point ads something viable for pve dps and utility. I put all the info into the calculator and this build (with Bis gear & rune edged nightblade) and a couple variations I tried (like one less in lethality and 5 in sword spec) seem to be coming out on top by around 100-200 dps.

I feel like this spec has the potential to top all other combat builds seeing that with the high amount of hit on gear you essentially lose nothing but gain the 4 or 5% extra hits.

I also tried the spec with 18 - 51 - 2 and it seemed to be only slightly higher.. but with using instant poison and envenom maybe it could be better.

I don't really have a good offhand sword to try it out in game so all my numbers are coming from spreadsheet work.

If people have already tried this let me know.

Aéquitas · 05/27/09, 4:36 AM

Originally Posted by Sneakymugs

So I was reading these forums when yet another poster said that fist / sword was no longer viable. That had me thinking. So I thought to myself that with hit cap so easy to achieve what if I used those talent points and the filler points from the standard 15 - 51 - 5 spec and put them into sword. The result is this build.

The World of Warcraft Armory

This build has no filler point and every point ads something viable for pve dps and utility. I put all the info into the calculator and this build (with Bis gear & rune edged nightblade) and a couple variations I tried (like one less in lethality and 5 in sword spec) seem to be coming out on top by around 100-200 dps.

I feel like this spec has the potential to top all other combat builds seeing that with the high amount of hit on gear you essentially lose nothing but gain the 4 or 5% extra hits.

I also tried the spec with 18 - 51 - 2 and it seemed to be only slightly higher.. but with using instant poison and envenom maybe it could be better.

I don't really have a good offhand sword to try it out in game so all my numbers are coming from spreadsheet work.

If people have already tried this let me know.

I have tried your build in the spreadsheet and as expected it does alot less dps then just going with 1 weaponspec.

Fist, Sword with BiS gear: 7648,4 dps
Fist, Dagger with BiS gear: 7779,8 dps
Sword, Sword with BiS gear: 7661,2 dps

You might have enough hit on your gear to not need precision to hit the poisoncap but don't forget that hit still gives extra dps after the poisonhitcap. Skipping 3 points in precision will lose you around [1.4(3x32)]= 139EP thats quite alot to make up for especially with Bladetwister being alot better then Voidsabre (10 extra dps, 1.4 speed instead of 1.5 and about the same stats on it).
So unless hardmode heroic drops an extremely good offhand sword that blows Bladetwister out of the water I doubt your build will ever be viable in BiS Ulduar gear.

It is quite close to sword sword though so it might be worth going for when you can't get a good Mainhand sword or offhand dagger. You will lose the nice utility that 1 or 2 points in throwing specialisation gives which helps on thorim arena and Yogg Saron Phase 3. (and general+council as panic buttons when kick is on cooldown)

Sneakymugs · 05/27/09, 5:39 AM

Originally Posted by Aéquitas

I have tried your build in the spreadsheet and as expected it does alot less dps then just going with 1 weaponspec.

Fist, Sword with BiS gear: 7648,4 dps
Fist, Dagger with BiS gear: 7779,8 dps
Sword, Sword with BiS gear: 7661,2 dps

You might have enough hit on your gear to not need precision to hit the poisoncap but don't forget that hit still gives extra dps after the poisonhitcap. Skipping 3 points in precision will lose you around [1.4(3x32)]= 139EP thats quite alot to make up for especially with Bladetwister being alot better then Voidsabre (10 extra dps, 1.4 speed instead of 1.5 and about the same stats on it).
So unless hardmode heroic drops an extremely good offhand sword that blows Bladetwister out of the water I doubt your build will ever be viable in BiS Ulduar gear.

It is quite close to sword sword though so it might be worth going for when you can't get a good Mainhand sword or offhand dagger. You will lose the nice utility that 1 or 2 points in throwing specialisation gives which helps on thorim arena and Yogg Saron Phase 3. (and general+council as panic buttons when kick is on cooldown)

It seems to me that the only thing that puts Fist dagger over the top is Bladetwister.. cause with any other dagger The Fist / Sword combo comes out on top.. and lets face it Rune etched Nightblade is gunna be far more attainable for rogues then bladetwister. So it seems to me unless you have bladetwister and Golden then this spec comes out ahead. I have Calamitys / Golem and this spec with rune etched beats my dps by over 100. So I think alot of it is gear based.

As far as losing alot of hit.. I have seen alot of rogues with over 400 hit running around.. the ep value on the hit drops dramatically after the poison cap. so the points in precision really are a waste.

Valustria · 05/27/09, 5:58 AM

Originally Posted by Aéquitas

You will lose the nice utility that 1 or 2 points in throwing specialisation gives which helps on thorim arena and Yogg Saron Phase 3. (and general+council as panic buttons when kick is on cooldown)

And Razorscale's adds, and Freya's trash, and Mimiron's trash, and... shit, like the whole instance. I've recently fallen in love with how much mindless utility Throwing Spec brings to the raid.

Aéquitas · 05/27/09, 8:36 AM

Originally Posted by Sneakymugs

As far as losing alot of hit.. I have seen alot of rogues with over 400 hit running around.. the ep value on the hit drops dramatically after the poison cap. so the points in precision really are a waste.

It does not drop as dramaticly as you like to think. Just check the EP values in your spreadsheet. With my current gear Crit is worth 1,66 EP and Hit above the poisonhitcap is worth 1,31 EP. So hits value is about 80% of crits value.

I think if you really want to go with your plan you might be better of with going for 2 points in swordspec instead of the full 5 at least then you are not sacrificing pure dps talents like precision.

Originally Posted by Sneakymugs

It seems to me that the only thing that puts Fist dagger over the top is Bladetwister.. cause with any other dagger The Fist / Sword combo comes out on top.. and lets face it Rune etched Nightblade is gunna be far more attainable for rogues then bladetwister. So it seems to me unless you have bladetwister and Golden then this spec comes out ahead. I have Calamitys / Golem and this spec with rune etched beats my dps by over 100. So I think alot of it is gear based.

I put all the info into the calculator and this build (with Bis gear & rune edged nightblade)

Ofcourse it is all gearbased but hey you are stating yourself that you plugged it in with BiS gear...

So I rechecked your statement with only using gear from 10 man normal and 25 man normal.

Fist/Dagger: 7203,6 dps (Insanity's Grip and Golem-Shard Sticker)
Fist/Sword (5/5 + 5/5): 7258,9 dps (Insanity's Grip and Rune-Etched Nightblade)
Fist/Sword (5/5 + 2/5): 7253,9 dps (Insanity's Grip and Rune-Etched Nightblade)
Sword/Sword: 7294,6 (Malice and Rune-Etched Nightblade)

Seeing how easy Malice and 4 piece T8 is to get. (those bosses should both be puggable on most servers) I think going sword/sword is the way to go until you start doing hardmodes and full dualspecs will only be worth it in sub optimal gear.

grun_war · 05/27/09, 9:55 AM

Has anyone try 52\12\7 (2 points in MP and 2 in TtT) for Mutilate build?
It seems pretty nice for me but i want to know your advice.

Paislee · 05/27/09, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Pinch

The main reason you'll find most guilds who are doing hard modes have their Rogues go Combat is because it feels like you have a safety net. It is much easier to play well than Mutilate (which has a bit more micromanagement). When you're learning new encounters, having more time to pay attention to the game world instead of timers is usually better.

I'm going to have to disagree for several reasons. With so many cooldowns to juggle/time precisely, Combat is quite a bit more complex to play than Mutilate. I seriously, seriously doubt rogues are speccing Combat for hard modes because it's "easier." That sounds like something bad rogues do.

Additionally, whether it be itemization (likely), playstyle, or simply a matter of it being a superior spec, Combat clearly takes the DPS lead in most encounters versus Mutilate. As Mutilate, I'm finding myself so starved for expertise and hit rating, I have to do obnoxious things like gem for hit/expertise or use subpar trinkets where Combat rogues get what they need from the combat tree.

Lastly, some hard modes simply call for a rogue with Throwing Specialization. lol

HolyHotty · 05/27/09, 12:32 PM

Since this thread is meant for noobs like me, I assume it's ok to ask my noob questions here :P

First of all, how accurate and up to date is all the info in this guide? I'm guessing it's pretty up to date since the last edit was made a few days ago, but according to all you leet rogues out there, how accurate is it?

Next, I'm a fairly new raiding rogue. I've been learning how to play the class seriously for about a month now, and I think I'm making decent progress. However, I feel like I should be doing better than I am at this point, so I could really use your guys' help putting the finishing touches on my play style. Here's my character: The World of Warcraft Armory Keep in mind I'm in a (obviously) pretty crappy guild on a pretty crappy server, something I'm going to be changing soon, so my choice in raid gear is limited, as well as the frequency with which I see drops. Any immediate suggestions as far as spec, enchants, gear replacement, and gems?

Performance wise, I'm getting better at moving and keeping up a rotation. On moving fights like Heigen and Grobbulus, I do about 4000 dps, and on Patchwerk I do 4500. But my rotation always feels sloppy and ADDish. How much damage should a competent rogue in my gear be doing on a fight like Patchwerk with my gear, in a 25 man with all the buffs? I've tried my best to follow the guide, but I always have trouble with my combo points getting to 5 with too much time left on slice and dice and rupture, but when I eviscerate, I can't get back up to 5 to start rupture before it's been off for a few seconds without letting slice and dice fall off. I mostly fixed that problem by eviscerating at 3 or 4 combo points depending on how much time I have left on rupture, but I'm not sure if that's optimal for DPS. So, my question is, what do you guys do to smooth out your rotations? For example, what do you do if you have 5 combo points, 6 seconds left on rupture, 10 sec left on SnD and you're at half energy? An eviscerate will mean not having rupture for a while. Slice and dice will waste 10 sec on the current one. Do you just keep sinister striking until you can rupture, or should this situation not happen in the first place with an early eviscerate every time? Or am I missing something big about the rotation?

Thanks for any suggestions.

Istaril · 05/27/09, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by grun_war

Has anyone try 52\12\7 (2 points in MP and 2 in TtT) for Mutilate build?
It seems pretty nice for me but i want to know your advice.

Why on earth would you sacrifice 1 point from CQC (1% crit on all abilities) for a 2% crit on Mutilate (only), which might not even always be up.

chalon · 05/27/09, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Paislee

I'm going to have to disagree for several reasons. With so many cooldowns to juggle/time precisely, Combat is quite a bit more complex to play than Mutilate. I seriously, seriously doubt rogues are speccing Combat for hard modes because it's "easier." That sounds like something bad rogues do.

Additionally, whether it be itemization (likely), playstyle, or simply a matter of it being a superior spec, Combat clearly takes the DPS lead in most encounters versus Mutilate. As Mutilate, I'm finding myself so starved for expertise and hit rating, I have to do obnoxious things like gem for hit/expertise or use subpar trinkets where Combat rogues get what they need from the combat tree.

Lastly, some hard modes simply call for a rogue with Throwing Specialization. lol

Well, the assumption is that if you have only 1 rogue in the raid, they will be Combat simply because they're going to provide Savage Combat. That rogue can easily cover Throwing Spec.

So the question becomes whether subsequent rogues should be Combat or Mutilate. There's an argument for both. I'd actually back off a bit from my fight assessments from a few weeks ago. After the ArP change, and after doing more of the hard modes on 25 man, I actually now think there are only really a couple of fights in Ulduar which favor Combat. Even something like XT, which pretty clearly favors Combat in Normal mode is almost a toss-up on hard mode. Yes, Combat will out damage you on the heart phase, but then there's the remaining 8 minutes of the fight.

Keep in mind the latest numbers suggest that Mutilate is about 1.6% behind Combat on non-Murderable fights, whereas Mutilate is something like 4% ahead on Murder fights. This means that a lot of the fights which were previously in the "favors Combat" column are now more towards toss-ups, and some of the fights which previously were tossups now favor Mutilate. For something like Freya hard mode, I actually completely agree that Mutilate is ever so slightly better for the fight.

You could argue that it's maybe harder to get good gear combos while you're still gearing up, but once you have a bit more options you don't have too hard of a time getting close to Expertise cap without many gems, and/or finding a decent amount of hit rating.

Finally, whether or not Combat is "easier" or "harder" to play probably comes down to personal preference.

capi1216 · 05/27/09, 1:25 PM

So right now I'm running 18/51/2 and using CG/WD... we have been gearing up in 10man uldular and 25man uldular. Last night we ran 25man and a OH sword dropped (i forgot the name) and I didnt use dkp on it at all (yup we use dkp b/c of randoms in guild just showing up @ times). Now I figured, hey I'm CQC and (this was my impression on swords) unless I'm close to the white hit cap, swords wont really stack up as it may not proc the OH swing as much as in BC. Was this completely wrong to think? We are not attempting hard modes as of yet, so should I be aiming for Swords as weapon upgrades? Our top 3 rogues sit on top of the charts 2 combat (one being myself) and 1 mutilate. Its usually Me or the mutilate rogue @ 1 and 2 (switched around at times) and then the 3rd rogue... but anyway, any insight to the weaps to aim for outside of hard modes would be great. In 10m we go up to hodir if that makes a difference, in 25m its the boss w/ the panther adds, not sure of her name @ them moment.

THanks

saedo · 05/27/09, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by capi1216

Now I figured, hey I'm CQC and (this was my impression on swords) unless I'm close to the white hit cap, swords wont really stack up as it may not proc the OH swing as much as in BC. Was this completely wrong to think? We are not attempting hard modes as of yet, so should I be aiming for Swords as weapon upgrades?

Yes it was wrong to think that. But you spec around the best weapons you can get. A spreadsheet can tell you which is better. A good set of swords will beat fists, a better set of fists will beat swords, etc etc.

capi1216 · 05/27/09, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by saedo

Yes it was wrong to think that. But you spec around the best weapons you can get. A spreadsheet can tell you which is better. A good set of swords will beat fists, a better set of fists will beat swords, etc etc.

well that sucks, now i have to wait until they drop again... thanks for the reply. by the way, which spreadsheet are we currently using?