Please forgive me if this has been asked or will cause in infraction. But, is it plausable for putting rupture back into the mut rotation since the nerfs? I've never figured out how to work the spreadsheets, otherwise I would have tried it there.

I know this may be a repeated question, but I did not understand the answer. If someone knows where the post is to answer this I would be happy for the link.

I want to know how the Spell Hit vs. White Hit works for us rogues.

Thanks in advance,

Rosh.

Poison attacks are considered spell based attacks and are, as such, influenced by spell hit rating. The spell hit cap is 315 for rogues who are specced into Precision. This is oftentimes referred to as the Poison Cap.

White damage attacks are considered physical attacks and are influenced by melee hit rating. The white hit cap, also known as the hard hit cap, is 722 for rogues specced into Precision. Reaching this cap prevents all your white damage attacks from missing. It's generally not considered worthwhile in terms of dps to reach the hard hit cap, bar specific crit cap situations.

Attacks made with special abilities such as Sinister Strike, Eviscerate etc. are also regulated by your melee hit rating, however they don't suffer the same chance to miss as your white damage attacks. Thus, you only need 99 hit rating to prevent your special attacks from missing - again, provided you're specced into Precision.

There's is no magical hit rating number that you positively have to reach, or the Universe will blow up. Hit rating is a dps stat just like crit rating, ArP, Agility, AP and so on. However, it's generally recommended that you aim for a hit rating in the vicinity of the Poison Cap. However, what exact hit rating will result in the highest theoretical dps for you, will always be dependant on your own specific gear set-up along with the buffs and debuffs affecting you and the target you're trying to hit.

One thing that I guess should be updated is the EP for professions. Seeing as you refer to the post made in June about haste's EP (for engineering) when now it's gone up quite a bit. It would seem as though Engineering is even more ahead than it was before.

It's actually not quite that simple. With haste eclipsing agi in value on a 1-to-1 basis, the Engineering cloak enchant is far less relevant; with crit fading and hit rising in importance, the engineering boot enchant is actually a DPS downgrade relative to Icewalker (though adds utility on certain types of movement fights). And bombs, while useful enough, haven't scaled like the rest of the stats do (at least, not to the same extent), making their damage contribution much smaller on a relative basis.

Ignoring bombs for the moment, with Haste's EP value hovering around 2 - call it 2.1 at high gear levels - the engineering enchant is worth around 68 * 2.1 = 143 EP, versus 44 for the regular glove enchant - about a 90 EP upgrade. So (again, neglecting bombs), it certainly beats the 80 AP professions - but only beats Blacksmithing if you have no stats over 2.25 EP. Which is true for Mutilate... but not for Combat. At high gear levels Combat's ArPen EP gets up around 2.9, which works out to a straight 30 DPS upgrade relative to Engineering... which is enough to cover bombs as well (or close).

So: yes, if you have all the engineering gismos, it's BIS for Mutilate, and at least a reasonable option for Combat... but that assumes you're using everything on cooldown. As soon as you start delaying by even a handful of seconds on each cooldown, you can pretty quickly give away your advantage. It's a profession you really need to be attentive of and committed to if you expect to get top numbers out of it. And if you do, you can... but not always by a lot, and not for all specs.

I think engineering is a perfectly reasonable profession choice, but I don't think it's the clear favorite - certainly not for Combat, and possibly not even for Mutilate.

The glove cooldown is worth more on any fight with a downtime. Some of the hardest fights right now have downtimes where there is very little or no DPS, such as Putricide or Anub. If you need to kite, your glove cooldown will be resetting which makes its value relatively higher to other profession bonuses. If you don't vanish the tear gas, the same holds true. The spreadsheet assumes 100% uptime on your target, and this is obviously not always the case. Whether it makes eng THAT much better can certainly be debated, but the added mobility and free bomb damage make eng very strong imo. If you have JC/BS as combat, eng would be harder to justify. However, if you have a profession that grants 80 ap I think eng is clearly better.

I've been wondering the same thing, and Lightshadow has given a wonderful explanation on how to find out how much time it is worth waiting for trinket procs when using your cooldowns.

Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers
(though the answer is not so simple)

Regarding tiny abomination - am i right in reading it as:

[Assuming ald's research on proc-rate is roughly right (still a work in progress) - 50% proc off either weapon.]

[1/2(proc) x 1/8(number of stacks to take effect) x 1/2 (of weapon damage)] x melee damage = 1/32 of melee damage added? (melee very roughly equals 1/3 damage, 1/32x1/3 = 1% dps gain from the trink's proc?)

A very rough figure, would be added to by stacks gained from specials, etc, but still seems pretty low?

You have to remember also that the proc can proc poisons, things like focused attacks and combat potency, procs on weapons themselves such as enchants etc.

I see malvanas in his dps spread sheet summary says to pool 60 energey for combat.. i was jsut wondering why?

Is the EP value for DbW still the same ? since now he procs Haste instead of ArP.

[Deathbringer's Will] 652 493

Would someone be able to help me understand conceptually why the value of Agi increases as we get better gear? My guess is that as we acquire more hit rating, more white hits land. As more white hits land, the melee crit benefit from Agi begins to exceed the AP bonus to poisons (basically shifting the breakdown of our damage more towards white damage).

Am I somewhere close to the mark, or way out there in la-la-land?

Briefly stated: as gear improves, all your stats increase. Each stat increases the absolute DPS gain of some or all of the other stats (i.e., the more AP you have, the more damage you gain from a point of crit, hit, haste, ArPen, expertise, or agility). It so happens that the rate at which AP increases the value of the other stats tends to be faster than the rate at which the other stats increase the value of AP; hence, since EP values are normalized such that AP=1, the EP values of all other stats tend to generally increase as gear improves.

Above removed because of unclear wording:

What I meant was, if that was unclear was:

When calculating the EP value for agi / crit, was the 2 energy gained on crit from focused attacks, factored in, or is the ep value "only" the direct dmg increase...?

EP values are derived from the various spreadsheet models found on these forums for the most part. Yes, they factor in all talents and most buffs.

I have two questions I'm stuck in search of and still have yet to find a conclusion.

1) After recently downloading the latest sheet, with a few changes of gear in between the change. I notice EP Value of haste has gone up and is being suggested in almost every socket over AP or AP/Haste. Was the EP Value of haste changed or is it all because of my gear? I am no where near full BIS so I have a hard time believing gemming haste will result in higher dps.

2) Many say energy pooling even with vigor+ glyph isn't worth using due to risks of caping energy. Is this still the case?


Thanks and I appreciate the work you put into these questions and spreadsheets.

1) The quick and dirty answer is that the change to deadly poison pushes up the value of haste for both combat and mutilate specs, though just how valuable that haste is relative to other stats really depends on your gear and it is not unusual to see recommended gems change frequently as you make changes to the gear setup in the spreadsheet. Also keep in mind that the sheet isn't trying to optimize all slots simultaneously, but on a one-by-one basis. Changing an AP/Haste gem to Haste could result in little to no actual change in dps estimate but can swing the recommendation back to AP/Haste. It's all in the ratios of your stats relative to each other.

2) The better question is why are you using vigor and the glyph when from a raiding standpoint Fleet Footed and a glyph of Tricks of the Trade will generate better personal dps and raid dps in virtually every conceivable set of circumstances (assuming you are raiding as mutilate). Energy Pooling was at least of arguable value in finisher rotations that included rupture along with eviscerate/envenom as a hedge against bouts of bad RNG. Now that Rupture is on the shelf we are no longer trying to squeeze some maximum number of eviscerates/envenoms between SnD/Rupure refreshes for combat spec (where pooling was of debatable value all along). Mutilate it is a dps loss to clip your envenom buff with early refreshes so you will often be pooling energy while you wait for the envenom buff to end while sitting on 4-5 CPs, but it is essentially pointless to pool beyond what is needed to perform a finisher deliberately unless there is an upcoming event that requires a sudden burst of damage.

Well, he kind of got it backwards is the issue. While it is true that the Tricks glyph will bring more rDPS than the Vigor glyph, the notion of switching one point out of Fleet Footed into Vigor has been brought up with Rogues that are running with Heartpierce and the T10 set bonuses. The energy regen isn't constantly crazy, but it can be with the right order of procs, which isn't what I'd call uncommon. The 4pc proc can force you to pretty severely clip its Envenom due to energy cap problems, as well.

However, I don't recall ever seeing any math on the difference between the two options. If anyone else has, please do PM a link to me. Having 2pc and a HP myself, I'm really interested in the subject.

If you use mutilate for interrupted fights instead of using a combat offspec, then there is little justification for ever using vigor over even one point of Fleet Footed. The effect of vigor even when glyphed is nomore than 70 dps with Heartbreaker. There has been a discussion of that in the simsheet thread and you can check what the latest estimate is based on the most recent version. I have not checked it in a while, but it's possible that after removing energy pooling, the effect of vigor is significantly reduced. At the same time, Fleet Footed has an effect of 200 dps and more on your dps for some interrupted fights.

Okay thanks. A second thought, could two points into remorseless attacks increase overall dps more then two points into fleet footed?

The spreadsheets are designed and modeled for boss fights. Remorseless is only (barely) useful for trash, and has extremely little use on bosses. LDW, Gunship, Putricide, Dreamwalker, and LK are the only fights where it could be used, and of those fights, having an increased movement speed is also greatly beneficial, far more so in some cases.

I'm sure this has probably been answered somewhere on here, so forgive me for asking it, but right now my guild has an arms warrior, and I am geared entirely for combat with little to no assassination gear, I was just wondering if there was any reason for me to stay combat as my mainspec. I always thought that it was more of a raid dps loss to bring an arms warrior than it was to bring a combat rogue, but he disagreed, and I really don't have anything to back up my argument with, because I don't know a damn thing about warriors really.

I know it's a bad example, because of all of the aoeing involved in the fight, but I noticed I was outdpsing the other rogue and the arms warrior on our Lich King 25 attempts, so it would seem being combat for that fight may not be a terrible idea?

Any insight on this would be great.


If I had a muti set, I wouldn't mind respeccing for some fights, as I do know it's better, but I have like none and my guild is 11/12 ICC 25, so basically my question is, should I stay combat? Or should I try my ass off to get weapons, gear, gems, and trinkets for a mutilate spec and only spec combat for some fights?