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Old 08/27/10, 5:12 AM   #1626
Saweni
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Kirin Tor (EU)
Originally Posted by Tunus View Post
Not to mention that you should start by popping a speed pot (as close to combat start as possible); which will pull you out of stealth anyway.
A "/use pot /cast stealth" macro does the job.

Edit The fact is muti rogues need to open with stealth because of Overkill. On non-timed bosses you can use rocket boots or sprint tu bridge the gap, that's only a matter of timing.

Last edited by Saweni : 09/07/10 at 8:04 PM.

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Old 08/27/10, 5:47 AM   #1627
Gogge
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Dragonmaw (EU)
Originally Posted by Saweni View Post
A "/use pot /cast stealth" macro does the job.
And then you're outside the boss' aggro range (20+ yards?), in stealth (70% movement speed), with the 15 second pot buff timer running. Unless you're on Saurfang I can't see how it would be beneficial to open from stealth?

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Old 08/27/10, 6:07 AM   #1628
Eustache
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
Originally Posted by Gogge View Post
And then you're outside the boss' aggro range (20+ yards?), in stealth (70% movement speed), with the 15 second pot buff timer running. Unless you're on Saurfang I can't see how it would be beneficial to open from stealth?
You can still chug a pot, stealth, then and run in with sprint or rocket boots in fights where movement speed won't be an issue.

You can do the Pot -> Stealth (-> Garrote if Mutilate) combo on Lich King, too. It also goes nicely using two pots with two Heroisms in this particular encounter. You can pull off something similar if you stealth behind Lady DW (you can stealth right up into melee range behind her).

It's an issue of how much you are willing to spend for extra dps. Even if you only use 50% of the haste pot time, it's a dps win, but yeah it costs a haste pot. Same with Overkill only that it's free, and you get another Overkill with Vanish. Imho it's worth it if you take raiding seriously.

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Old 08/27/10, 11:03 AM   #1629
Zulkeir
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by Gogge View Post
And then you're outside the boss' aggro range (20+ yards?), in stealth (70% movement speed), with the 15 second pot buff timer running. Unless you're on Saurfang I can't see how it would be beneficial to open from stealth?
ICC Bosses are not detectors, and most do not have additional aggro range beyond a normal 83 mob. It is safe to approach quite close to most of them in stealth (though at this point you'd break stealth with the pot, open with a generator and let the hunters apply the bleed). Also, sprint or rocketboots, if they will not be used during the fight, are more than acceptable to close the distance.

Overall, you can easily pre-pot + stealth to a number of bosses.
  • LDW -> You can just normally walk up behind her on the platform, pre-pot + stealth, then sprint onto her back.
  • Saurfang -> he's there. pot+stealth is easy.
  • Fester + Rot -> both are easy to prepot + run in.
  • Putricide -> has a very small aggro.
  • BPC -> easy if you have the RP to go through, otherwise, not worth it.
  • BQL -> small aggro radius, easy to sprint in since you dont need it in the fight.
  • Valithria -> pointless.
  • Sindragosa -> ahhahahahahaha
  • LK -> theres an RP timer, AND he runs to you! How awesome is that?

That said, starting from stealth is really only important for mutilate rogues, combat can reverse the order, stealth up really close, tricks, and break stealth with a pot. If timed right, you get a free pot in there, if wrong, you pull aggro and die.

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Old 08/27/10, 12:40 PM   #1630
Eustache
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
Originally Posted by Zulkeir View Post
  • LDW -> You can just normally walk up behind her on the platform, pre-pot + stealth, then sprint onto her back.
You'd get more out of it if you stealth very close to her, and open up the fight with pot -> attacking because she isn't tanked in P1 anyway. In my opinion, this is more of a mutilate rogue thing because most raid leaders would leave you on LDW. Combat rogues more readily switch to help with adds. We're usually having a damage stop at around 8% of the shield anyway because it's more likely that you need to clear up remaining adds before transition, hence, the pre-potting is somewhat wasted on her in terms of what the raid needs (so it's more of a personal raid dps statistic thing).

I also rather open up with garrote because it can take several seconds for a bleed to apply sometimes, and in my opinion, HbF should be put up first.

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Old 08/28/10, 12:05 PM   #1631
Gogge
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Dragonmaw (EU)
Originally Posted by Zulkeir View Post
ICC Bosses are not detectors, and most do not have additional aggro range beyond a normal 83 mob. It is safe to approach quite close to most of them in stealth (though at this point you'd break stealth with the pot, open with a generator and let the hunters apply the bleed). Also, sprint or rocketboots, if they will not be used during the fight, are more than acceptable to close the distance.
In regards to combat. You move at 119% speed while sprinting in stealth, regular run speed with boot enchant is 108%, 8.33 yards per second compared to 7.56 yards per second regular speed. Outside stealth you sprint at 170% speed, 11,9 yards per second. On a regular stationary boss where you start outside aggro range, say Marrowgar with a 10 yard hitbox-to-aggro range (which is what I have on my rogue after testing some pulls), you have five yards that you need to close. This will take the rogue in stealth around 0.6 seconds (my 264 geared rogue loses 13600 DPS on a target without sunder/ISB/CoE) so say 8100 damage lost compared to starting in melee range. The rogue without stealth reaches Marrowgar in 0.42 seconds and loses about 5700 damage. So not using stealth is 2400 damage better in this case. So the only place where it's better to start in stealth as combat is "possibly" at Saurfang and LK, if you even want to bother with using garrote.

Now compare this to the bosses where you don't have to run only five yards, and where you pull with shattering throw (and possibly you BL/Heroism at the start) and let the boss move towards tank+melee to maximize DPS uptime even more.
Originally Posted by Zulkeir View Post
  • LDW -> You can just normally walk up behind her on the platform, pre-pot + stealth, then sprint onto her back.
  • Saurfang -> he's there. pot+stealth is easy.
  • Fester + Rot -> both are easy to prepot + run in.
  • Putricide -> has a very small aggro.
  • BPC -> easy if you have the RP to go through, otherwise, not worth it.
  • BQL -> small aggro radius, easy to sprint in since you dont need it in the fight.
  • Valithria -> pointless.
  • Sindragosa -> ahhahahahahaha
  • LK -> theres an RP timer, AND he runs to you! How awesome is that?
For every boss here, and add Marrowgar, aside from Saurfang and LK, you can do the same without stealth and gain more damage, or run in from the front as mentioned in the case above and it would be a even bigger difference.

Originally Posted by Zulkeir View Post
That said, starting from stealth is really only important for mutilate rogues, combat can reverse the order, stealth up really close, tricks, and break stealth with a pot. If timed right, you get a free pot in there, if wrong, you pull aggro and die.
I would say that starting in stealth is a DPS loss for combat most of the time. As for mutilate you also gain 60 energy, at 200 DPE (might be higher for mutilate, guesstimate form my alt combat rogue once again) that's 12000 damage. If I would run for more than 0.88 seconds I would lose damage overall. If it's a benefit to start from stealth depends on how your guild does it's pulls, I think that only on Deathwhisper, Saurfang and LK it can generally be said that it's always better to start in stealth for Mutilate, the other bosses you need to consider other factors.

Use a spreadsheet, use your brain and observe the tactics your guild employs. If you spend even one second too long in stealth, instead of just running in without stealth, you lose DPS.

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Old 08/29/10, 3:45 AM   #1632
Deadlywizard234
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
<YO>
Kalecgos
My thinking is that it would be bad to use the speed potion before you enter into combat. Why waste any potion time before combat? In addition, I would think that you would want to get your first speed potion off at the exact same time as all your other abilities (trinket, ToTT, blade flurry, killing spree, Adrenaline Rush) with a macro or two, so they all have the maximum amount of overlap time - since all of these abilities enhance eachother.


As far as stealthing before or after combat, I guess I should stop garroting as my first attack as a combat rogue, and start sinister striking? If this is the case, i'm guessing the most dps efficient plan would be to stay in stealth behind an enemy before combat starts, and as soon as the main tank initiates the encounter, unstealth and SS as my opener.

Last edited by Deadlywizard234 : 08/29/10 at 4:02 AM.

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Old 08/29/10, 4:11 AM   #1633
Honzu
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Kel'Thuzad
Originally Posted by Deadlywizard234 View Post
My thinking is that it would be bad to use the speed potion before you enter into combat. Why waste any potion time before combat? In addition, I would think that you would want to get your first speed potion off at the exact same time as all your other abilities (trinket, ToTT, blade flurry, killing spree, Adrenaline Rush) with a macro or two, so they all have the maximum amount of overlap time - since all of these abilities enhance eachother.


As far as stealthing before or after combat, I guess I should stop garroting as my first attack as a combat rogue, and start sinister striking? If this is the case, i'm guessing the most dps efficient plan would be to stay in stealth behind an enemy before combat starts, and as soon as the main tank initiates the encounter, unstealth and SS as my opener.
The idea of using a potion before combat starts is so you can use another one later (otherwise know as the double pot trick)

Yes, you will be wasting some time on the first pot, but having the residual effects of the first pot as you enter into combat and then using a second during the heroism later will provide some extra dps.

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Old 08/29/10, 11:01 PM   #1634
Code2004
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Aerie Peak (EU)
Originally Posted by Honzu View Post
Yes, you will be wasting some time on the first pot, but having the residual effects of the first pot as you enter into combat and then using a second during the heroism later will provide some extra dps.
In addition, for mutilate rogues this is pretty much as close as you can get to compensating for the time you waste applying poisons and getting your rotation up and whatnot. Quick start = win .

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Old 09/03/10, 5:38 PM   #1635
Deadlywizard234
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
<YO>
Kalecgos
Originally Posted by Honzu View Post
The idea of using a potion before combat starts is so you can use another one later (otherwise know as the double pot trick)

Yes, you will be wasting some time on the first pot, but having the residual effects of the first pot as you enter into combat and then using a second during the heroism later will provide some extra dps.
Well, I still disagree. How likely is it that using the pot 3 to 5 seconds earlier than when you'd normally use it is going to net you an extra use of the pot in the battle? Unlikely. If it does, it's just going to net you an extra use during the very end of the battle just as the boss is dying, and by then it really won't have served much of a purpose since the boss is almost completely dead.

Example:

You use potion at 0 sec into fight. I use potion 5 sec into fight to coordinate it with all my other cooldowns for maximum overlap.

If the fight ends at 4:15-5:00 (5:15-6:00 etc.) you've gained nothing by doing this. If the fight ends at 4:00-:4:15, you've only gained less than one full round of 500 haste, and by then the fight is already won so who cares. Why not use you're first potion along with all you're other abilities to create a super condensed wave of dps early on in the fight, when it counts the most? Not try to gain an extra wave of dps at the end of the fight.

EDIT: Oh ok, you can only use them once per combat? Yes I have been living in BC.

Last edited by Deadlywizard234 : 09/04/10 at 8:46 AM.

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Old 09/03/10, 5:48 PM   #1636
Feist-Mok
Bald Bull
 
Feist-Mok's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by Deadlywizard234 View Post
Well, I still disagree. How likely is it that using the pot 3 to 5 seconds earlier than when you'd normally use it is going to net you an extra use of the pot in the battle? Unlikely. If it does, it's just going to net you an extra use during the very end of the battle just as the boss is dying, and by then it really won't have served much of a purpose since the boss is almost completely dead.
Erm... What? Have you just not used a potion since BC or something? The way it works is once you use a potion in combat, you can't use another until you leave combat, AND 60 seconds have passed - whichever comes later. If you use a potion BEFORE entering combat - even if only by a second - you can use another potion 60 seconds later. This is commonly referred to a prepotting and is a DPS gain on any fight over 1:10 in length, give or take.

Originally Posted by Actovision View Post
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Old 09/03/10, 5:51 PM   #1637
Saan
El Beard
 
Saan's Avatar
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Alleria
If the fight ends at 4:15-5:00 (5:15-6:00 etc.) you've gained nothing by doing this. If the fight ends at 4:00-:4:15, you've only gained less than one full round of 500 haste, and by then the fight is already won so who cares. Why not use you're first potion along with all you're other abilities to create a super condensed wave of dps early on in the fight, when it counts the most? Not try to gain an extra wave of dps at the end of the fight.
I guess I'm a little confused on your logic here. Potions have a 1 min cooldown when used OOC. After that 1 min, I can then use another whenever I please (such as stacked on top of a heroism with other cooldowns). So if I use a pot at -1 secs (for example), I get 14 secs of potion usage, with maybe 10 seconds of more optimal use when stacked with my other cooldowns. Later in the fight, (At any time past 1 min after first usage, so 59 secs and on) I get to use another, full 15 secs of 500 haste, stacked whenever I think it will be most appropriate for a maximum amount of damage. This makes a total of 29 seconds of 500 haste, with around 24-25 seconds of that being optimal or near-optimal usage. If I'm wrong about this, please explain.

Last edited by Aldriana : 09/03/10 at 6:05 PM. Reason: fixing broken quote

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Old 09/06/10, 11:47 AM   #1638
Asøme
Glass Joe
 
Asøme's Avatar
 
Undead Rogue
 
Quel'dorei
So i have been thinking of this for a bit. And i came to one question concerning the prepot idea. If your raid were to BL about 10sec into the pull, you would only be getting a minor uptime of your pot while lusted. Now if you were to not prepot but instead use a pot while BL is up for maximum uptime would it out damage a prepot?

What im really asking is [(Prepot)+(BL)+(Later Pot)] vs [(Pot+BL)]


*This is all placed in the first 1min of a fight where a pot is still on cd.

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Old 09/06/10, 1:56 PM   #1639
Palanuial
Don Flamenco
 
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Orc Rogue
 
Jaedenar (EU)
Que common sense: The only time using one pot during BL is going to beat using two pots outside BL, is when BL increases your damage by 100%; and it doesn't.


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Old 09/06/10, 2:24 PM   #1640
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
That assumes that prepotting gives the full benefit of the potion, which it doesn't - both because you lose duration, and because boss debuffs take time to go up. So it's not a completely ludicrous question. That said, prepotting probably is still a larger DPS increase than a single potion during Heroism, but not by as much as you might expect.

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Old 09/07/10, 10:27 PM   #1641
boogiepop
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Executus
Does anyone open up with Ambush? or is that just a bad idea compared to pre potting

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Old 09/08/10, 8:13 AM   #1642
Eustache
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
Originally Posted by boogiepop View Post
Does anyone open up with Ambush? or is that just a bad idea compared to pre potting
Depends on the fight. On some, you can prepot and stealth with a macro and THEN ambush (Saurfang comes to mind). I still prefer opening with garrote as mutilate whenever possible simply because I "tested" other openers and sometimes, you lose a couple of seconds of HfB because a bleed isn't up instantly.

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Old 09/09/10, 9:02 AM   #1643
Hildegard
Tinker
 
Hildegard's Avatar
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Forscherliga (EU)
Assuming a bleed would be up, Mutilate seems like the best choice because of the additional poison proc or did I get this wrong?

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Old 09/13/10, 10:05 AM   #1644
Redrúm
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Kel'Thuzad
Originally Posted by Asøme View Post
So i have been thinking of this for a bit. And i came to one question concerning the prepot idea. If your raid were to BL about 10sec into the pull, you would only be getting a minor uptime of your pot while lusted. Now if you were to not prepot but instead use a pot while BL is up for maximum uptime would it out damage a prepot?

What im really asking is [(Prepot)+(BL)+(Later Pot)] vs [(Pot+BL)]


*This is all placed in the first 1min of a fight where a pot is still on cd.
I think this question is a little more worthy than it first appears, though I do agree that 2x 500 haste (even if the 1st isn't with ideal buffs) is the better way to go.

An enormous source of Mut. damage is from poisons (obviously), but if we look at when those poison procs. occur, it's largely b/c of the Envenom buff. Barring impossibly good RNG, it's not possible to keep Envenom up 100% of the time... outside of Hero., at least. The first thing that needs to be taken into consideration is the multiplicative nature of Hero. (which is the case, unless what I've read is incorrect), wherein 500 haste rating is effectively more than that ([haste %*1.3]+30%). At this point, does relentless strikes (and this question will be largely gear dependent) generate enough additional energy to allow for 100% Envenom uptime? If it does, the additional Mutilates w. Envenom up will generate a significant amount of poison damage that wouldn't exist w/out Pot+Hero. Enough damage that, just maybe, because of Hero's multiplicative nature and the potential to push for 100% Envenom uptime the comparison is marginal.

Because of this, I do find definite value to potting during Hero, though not enough to warrant ceasing to pre-pot.

Sadly, I'm still running DBW as one of my trinks., though potting during 2/3 DBW buffs is a worthwhile use in most cases.

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Old 09/13/10, 11:29 AM   #1645
Tinwhisker
Bald Bull
 
Tinwhisker's Avatar
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Zulkeir View Post
  • Sindragosa -> ahhahahahahaha
Actually, pre-potting and re-stealthing on Sindragosa is impossibly easy. You're are not put into combat and the aura doesn't start until she actually lands. Simply mount up on the stairs and ride to where your guild fights her (mine goes to the opposite side) if yours fights on the stairs simply don't mount. When you're in position, simply stealth to start the Overkill buff and open on your choice of moves when she lands. Even though we fight her on the far side, I always have several seconds where I'm standing around waiting for her to land in front of me in which I can stealth/tricks/pot/etc.


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Old 09/17/10, 1:47 AM   #1646
Deadlywizard234
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
<YO>
Kalecgos
Is it ever ok to use the elixir of armor piercing (+45 armor pen) over the flask of endless rage?

Even if you were ideally geared, the EP you get with 45 ArmPen would never come close to comparing to 180 AP. I am a tiny bit conflicted though, because my guild leader seems so sure of this (and he is ideally geared and seems knowledgable on his class). Is he just plain wrong on this one, or would there be gear combinations or boss situations where this would be optimal?

EDIT: Ok, now my guildmaster says dps doesn't matter. Damage matters.

What is he talking about? What is the difference between DPS and damage?

Last edited by Deadlywizard234 : 09/22/10 at 11:26 PM.

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Old 09/17/10, 5:03 AM   #1647
Vinn
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Steamwheedle Cartel (EU)
Using Aldriana's spreadsheet; at 1382 ArP, I find that ArP has a value of 3.1193 ep, which makes elixir's ep value 45x3.1191=140.3685 ep; so it is around 40 ep below Flask of Endless Rage even near ArP cap.

So unless you want to get a benefit of a guardian elixir; flask is always better.

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Old 09/17/10, 9:22 AM   #1648
ieatpaperbag
Piston Honda
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Eonar
This is a little beside the point but you would not want to use an ArP elixir at 1382 rating since you would only benefit from 18 of the 45 ArP rating (the cap is 1400 rating). To get the maximum benefit of an elixir of armor piercing, you should have 1355 rating or less. At 1355 rating, the EP of ArP will be lower then it is at 1382 rating so regardless, a flask is always better.

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