Pocket Guide to WOTLK (Updated for 3.3) - Page 67

Grishmaluk · 06/08/09, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by doomtop

I'm not sure I understand how this would be efficient? A 5pt rupture will last much longer than it takes to get another 5pts.

Well you have to maximize the uptime of Slice and Dice and Rupture. With only 2/5 Relentless strikes you will find yourself with less energy, which makes 5s/5r/5e a very complicated rotation for sustaining full uptime. With the 5s/5r you can make sure that neither SnD or Rupture drops. And you won't be flooded with cps or energy. IMO, just using a bonus Eviscerate during AR is enough.

Cally · 06/08/09, 1:52 PM

Originally Posted by Furazoio

I´ve been testing combat sword build and i got different numbers for EP hit yellow, poison, white and haste.
I guess these values was calculated upon combat fist/daggers spec where specialization gives 5% critical rating, but combat sword specialization gives you 5% change to got a free hit when you got a sucessfully melee target.

My numbers are: Yellow hit - 2.11; Poison Hit - 2.03; White Hit - 1.82; Haste - 1.54

Can someone else confirm this numbers?

The EP values listed in the guide are to be used as a rough approximation only. There are a couple paragraphs right above the EP value table stating that they are SAMPLE EP values for a BIS T7 geared rogue starting out for Ulduar; the exact EP values will vary given different gear sets/specs and the best way to get these values are through the spreadsheets provided. The EP values are a little dated and I will update them at some point to reflect properly Ulduar geared rogues but the usual disclaimer applies: use them for a quick glance only and use the spreadsheet for exact values.

Perini · 06/08/09, 3:22 PM

Originally Posted by Grishmaluk

Well you have to maximize the uptime of Slice and Dice and Rupture. With only 2/5 Relentless strikes you will find yourself with less energy, which makes 5s/5r/5e a very complicated rotation for sustaining full uptime. With the 5s/5r you can make sure that neither SnD or Rupture drops. And you won't be flooded with cps or energy. IMO, just using a bonus Eviscerate during AR is enough.

I get the same results with my current spreadsheet. 5s/5r with 18/51/2 yields an increase of roughly 400 dps (from 6500 to 6900).

Am I missing something here? The r/s/e rotation is more fun to play, but it seems to be way behind. Does the T8 bonus account for what I'm seeing?

Edit: Correction, for me the optimal cycle was 4s/5r.

swf · 06/09/09, 3:29 AM

Would double Wound Poison trump WP/DP on Yogg where almost none of the melee's primary targets aside from the brain (guardians/non-crusher tentacles/immortals) last very long, thereby possibly giving the edge to an instant damage poison?

Timujingeo · 06/09/09, 7:41 AM

Big problem with any wound poison on yogg is if you get MC'd you tend to FoK like crazy which totally screws up raid healing.
Imo go instant/deadly.

Originally Posted by swf

Would double Wound Poison trump WP/DP on Yogg where almost none of the melee's primary targets aside from the brain (guardians/non-crusher tentacles/immortals) last very long, thereby possibly giving the edge to an instant damage poison?

Moror · 06/09/09, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Timujingeo

Big problem with any wound poison on yogg is if you get MC'd you tend to FoK like crazy which totally screws up raid healing.
Imo go instant/deadly.

If you get mind controlled for long enough to run over to the ranged and spam Fan of Knives, your dispellers need to pick thier game up, I don't think I used more than a single GCD last night during Yoggy in the few times I got mind controlled.

As for double wound, personally I think that may well be a good idea, as you rightly stated you hardly get much dps uptime, however purely due to phase three where my raid has the melee on Yoggy, I'd personally still run WP/DP, as its only me and our dps warrior on Yoggy (we're a 10man guild) so I need to max my dps during that time.
Of course if you're dpsing the immortals during phase three then moving to WP/WP should be better.

meowmeows · 06/09/09, 7:03 PM

Originally Posted by Timujingeo

Big problem with any wound poison on yogg is if you get MC'd you tend to FoK like crazy which totally screws up raid healing.
Imo go instant/deadly.

In addition, you're playing an undead rogue. You can use will of the forsaken to break out of it.

Roslinn · 06/10/09, 10:35 AM

Did anyone with full T8 get a chance to test 18/51/2 with a 4s/5r rotation yesterday? I'm curious to see the results of actual tests in comparison to the spreadsheet data that some people are reporting in this thread.

Rambaral · 06/10/09, 11:42 AM

With the proposed 18/51/2 build and 5s/5r rotation, my spreadsheet shows a 340 dps increase to 7339. I have not yet tried it in game, so take this as speculation until I can run a 25 man later in the week.

Joigahdenn · 06/10/09, 3:20 PM

Testing the results of a spreadsheet in-game is rather difficult and not very reliable. Due to RNG and player error, you really aren't going to confirm anything that isn't very substantial change in dps. You can test game mechanics on dummies (like stat caps and proc mechanics, etc.), but confirming that 18/51/2 is superior to 15/51/5 with t8 in game might prove to be difficult unless the difference is very substantial. You would need to run very many tests under very similar circumstances.

Nightbliss · 06/10/09, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by Rambaral

With the proposed 18/51/2 build and 5s/5r rotation, my spreadsheet shows a 340 dps increase to 7339. I have not yet tried it in game, so take this as speculation until I can run a 25 man later in the week.

I find it hard to believe what some people claim in this thread.

I've plugged my gear on the latest spreadsheet out of boredoom, did the necessary adjustments and I'm getting 7173DPS with 15/51/5. Switching the spec to 18/51/2, I'm getting a ~50DPS loss.

I find it hard that, someone lesser geared than me is getting better scores than me, and ontop of that, getting more dps out of a specc that is clearly inferior.

Either I'm totally clueless about Excell or something is clearly wrong.

Mavanas · 06/11/09, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by Nightbliss

I find it hard to believe what some people claim in this thread.

I've plugged my gear on the latest spreadsheet out of boredoom, did the necessary adjustments and I'm getting 7173DPS with 15/51/5. Switching the spec to 18/51/2, I'm getting a ~50DPS loss.

I find it hard that, someone lesser geared than me is getting better scores than me, and ontop of that, getting more dps out of a specc that is clearly inferior.

Either I'm totally clueless about Excell or something is clearly wrong.

I think if you use pre-BiS gear, 18/51/2 might pull ahead of 15/51/5. However, if you have MR and you start stacking ArPen, 18/51/2 starts falling behind. If you distrust the spreadsheets and do not understand RNG, it will take a number of wowmeter or WWS records to prove that one spec is superior.

jorysaywut · 06/11/09, 2:06 AM

Did you make sure to switch your cycle as well? I'm assuming everyone is using the forum-modified version of Vulajin's sheet but I'm seeing a 100DPS+ increase with the change.

Edit: Is it possible in Aldriana's sheet? I don't see a change cycle window.

JarL · 06/11/09, 3:59 AM

I've been running 18/51/2 for a while now. Yeah these fancy spreadsheets are all fine and dandy, but they attempt to model a perfect rotation and perfect circumstances. 18/51/2 struggles to reach an "energy cap" even during AR whereas as 15/51/5 I often found myself losing energy from RNG capping it out due to combat potency proces + relentless strikes and especially during AR.

I'm yet to see a "convincing" WWS parse showing 15/51/5 as an overwhelming spec. For me 18/51/2 performs above 15/51/5.

Syrek · 06/11/09, 5:37 AM

Originally Posted by JarL

I've been running 18/51/2 for a while now. Yeah these fancy spreadsheets are all fine and dandy, but they attempt to model a perfect rotation and perfect circumstances. 18/51/2 struggles to reach an "energy cap" even during AR whereas as 15/51/5 I often found myself losing energy from RNG capping it out due to combat potency proces + relentless strikes and especially during AR.

I'm yet to see a "convincing" WWS parse showing 15/51/5 as an overwhelming spec. For me 18/51/2 performs above 15/51/5.

I'm also seeing a DPS increase when switching to 18/51/2.
Basically it increases the percentage of armor-ignoring damage you do, and that's also why it's value starts to diminish once you near the ArP cap.