Pocket Guide to WOTLK (Updated for 3.3) - Page 69

Len · 06/12/09, 4:22 AM

Originally Posted by Darkhavans

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-p...1/#post1273655 - This is the post you are referring to.

I find myself having similar problems with energy capping during AR, and as the previous poster said, switching to 18/51/2 gets rid of that problem for the most part.

I ran uld25 with this spec. Cycle is simpler, but because of SS-glyph and ruthlessness RNG, sometimes you are on 5 combo points and still have to spend energy for extra SS when snd and/or rupture is going out and energy is capping. You can't or don't always want to clip rupture. If you're on expose-job, you're going to lose rupture to EA. If you're using energy to kick, you're going to lose seconds of rupture or even snd. Seems that people are spinning "worse energy income" as "at least you don't cap on energy on AR!"

On 15/51/5 expose and kicks are taking combos and energy from the extra eviscerates. Note that Aldriana's sheet doesn't take situations like 5s/5r/5e/5e into account, where stars are aligned and crit chain with SS glyph gives combo points for several extra evisces.

So, while 18/51/2 might give a slight edge on dps (spreadsheets as they are now can't tell), you lose flexibility on everything else because of stricter cycle. If you're doing expose often in your guild, that alone would be reason to choose cookiecutter 15/51/5.

Jeppathum · 06/12/09, 4:48 AM

I haven't played combat (except for a dual spec for thorim while we learn the fight) since TBC, so this might be nonsense, but if people are running a pure 5s/5r rotation and getting too many combo points, would it be worth swapping the ss glyph for something else? AR or TotT spring to mind, since you wouldn't be using evis in that rotation.

snowman2050 · 06/12/09, 6:35 AM

If you can afford to be flexible with 18/51/2 and can keep your rotations tight try 2s/5r, this should remove the issues with regards to wasted combo points. Using that rotation I have kept rupture and SnD at 100% uptime and allows for a 5e during AR to be squezed in.

Len · 06/12/09, 6:54 AM

Originally Posted by snowman2050

If you can afford to be flexible with 18/51/2 and can keep your rotations tight try 2s/5r, this should remove the issues with regards to wasted combo points. Using that rotation I have kept rupture and SnD at 100% uptime and allows for a 5e during AR to be squezed in.

As I mentioned, the problem isn't keeping snd/rupture 100%, it's all the other things that encounters might need. With 15/51/5 4-5s/5r/5x is a possibility, with stray evisces thrown in. With 18/51/2 you're very restricted on anything extra, e.g. kicks or EA. Basically you're losing all your rupture damage if you want to keep EA.

I'm not actually comparing the two combatspecs by dps (in perfect case, as the Mavanas' simulation shows, the difference falls inside std error) but by the flexibility, which might mean that the comparison is, for example, between 2s/5x (18/51/2) and 4s/5r/5x (15/51/5), or with 25 less energy every 10 seconds. If there's no notable dps difference between the two specs, I choose the more flexible and forgiving any time, because there is no perfect dpsfight in Ulduar, and more importantly, I don't play perfectly.

Mideci · 06/12/09, 3:07 PM

Originally Posted by Jeppathum

I haven't played combat (except for a dual spec for thorim while we learn the fight) since TBC, so this might be nonsense, but if people are running a pure 5s/5r rotation and getting too many combo points, would it be worth swapping the ss glyph for something else? AR or TotT spring to mind, since you wouldn't be using evis in that rotation.

No, going from having "sometimes a few too many combo pts" to "often not enough combo pts" is a losing trade. And no other glyph comes close to making up for it.

whoa · 06/12/09, 9:21 PM

Originally Posted by Cally

Hit, Expertise, and Armor Pen Caps

Expertise Rating

For 6.5% boss dodge chance (26/26 expertise):

26 expertise (214 expertise rating) to cap.
16 expertise (132 expertise rating) to cap for rogues with 2/2 Weapon Expertise.
13 expertise (107 expertise rating) to cap for combat human rogues wielding a sword/mace.
11 expertise (91 expertise rating) to cap for combat dwarf rogues wielding a mace.

The above numbers are the expertise numbers needed from gear to cap.
The character tooltip should read 26 expertise.

/fixed

(:

Kukulcan · 06/13/09, 2:40 AM

Originally Posted by Milano

You may also consider that spending points in Vile Poison over Relentless Strikes is going to yield you more damage with FoK. You all seem to forget that FoK is a rather large part of our DPS in Ulduar, at least when it comes to BiS lists. Loosing a small amount of singletarget DPS for a larger FoK boost might in many cases be well worth it. Like in the cases were you can choose between haste or armor penetration on otherwise similiar items.

Well,talking of boss fights, i don't really use FoK in any boss fight beside Thorim in 25 man and on the other hand rogue is a single target dps. I wouldn't rely on aoe damage as a significant source of damage.

Mideci · 06/13/09, 5:51 AM

You don't use Fan of Knives on Razorscale? You don't use it on Freya? You don't use it on Yogg (Icecrown scenario)? I mean, I'm hardly saying "spec one way to max out your Fan damage", but I find it hard to believe you only use it on Thorim. Heck, I have used it on Auriaya, Kologarn and XT situationally for helping with the adds/miscellany.

Giloran · 06/13/09, 10:32 AM

FoK definitely is worth using in some situations, but thats a really small niche.
As Combat vs Yogg, I'd argue it would be the best to just use BF and build up combo points for a SnD in order to maximize your dps against the brain.
I agree on the rest of the bosses you listed

Mavanas · 06/13/09, 10:39 AM

For as long as we have been doing Thorim, I do not remember any class in arena coming close in damage to a rogue with 18/51/2 with FOK glyph, double wound with slow offhand dagger for trash mobs and fast dagger offhand with deadly poison for the boss. Coupled with throwing specialization, it becomes most invaluable in that encounter. For fights with mixed aoe and single target dps, like the ones Medici listed, 18/51/2 will have an noticable advantage over 15/51/5. Thorim, Freya and trash between bosses is the only content for which I could justify FOK glyph, but it's not hard to change a glyph. Also you can use mutilate for single target fights because it does same dps on nonmurderable targets and 6% more on murderable ones, and use 18/51/2 on the rest of the content.

Leonoire · 06/13/09, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Mideci

You don't use Fan of Knives on Razorscale? You don't use it on Freya? You don't use it on Yogg (Icecrown scenario)? I mean, I'm hardly saying "spec one way to max out your Fan damage", but I find it hard to believe you only use it on Thorim. Heck, I have used it on Auriaya, Kologarn and XT situationally for helping with the adds/miscellany.

Using it in the Icecrown scenario isn't very useful unless there is an unavoidable skull and you can use FoK to damage it without looking. Other than that, I hardly find FoK to be more worthwhile than single target as mutilate in the situations you mentioned. I don't find it to help kill the mobs faster or pad my DPS unless there are 5+ adds and i can kill them in 2 GCD's. Which is very rare, so i really don't find it useful on that many bosses, but you might depending on how you and your guild do things.

Moror · 06/13/09, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Mavanas

Also you can use mutilate for single target fights because it does same dps on nonmurderable targets and 6% more on murderable ones

I take it that is with the assumption that someone in the raid will be providing the 4% physical damage debuff?

The reason I ask is because I'm trying to justify whether or not to spec Mutilate, being that my guild is 10 man and the other melee (Fury warrior and DK/Pala tanks) obviously can't provide the debuff. (Of course the warrior could but the dps loss from Fury to Arms plus replacing 5% melee crit for 4% physical damage isn't worth it.)

Joigahdenn · 06/13/09, 12:56 PM

That is true, however, depending on what your raid composition is on 10 man, the difference between Mutilate and Combat may be enough to be worth it. Lets say its only you and the fury warrior, depending on how much DPS each of you put out, it might be worth it for you to stay Mutilate and him Fury and forget about the 4% physical. 10 man is a little more forgiving in that sense. In a 25man, there is no reason you shouldn't have the 4% physical debuff, there will almost always be enough melee to justify having it.

Mavanas · 06/13/09, 1:12 PM

Yes I was thinking of a 25 man raid in which someone else provides a 4% physical damage increase. Last I heard arms warriors have been outdpsing fury warriors in 3.1, but maybe it changed in later patches. If you are the only person that can provide the 4% and you have a ret paladin or an elemental shaman who provides 3% crit, then yes you better stay combat for the buff. Your personal dps increase if any, will not outweigh the raid buff.

If you are talking about a 10-man, depending on your raid composition, 3% crit increase for every dps in the raid could easily outweigh 4% physical damage increase. In general, there are many combinations of raid buffs, so the final answer can be swayed one way or the other depending on your raid.

Here are approximate values of raid buffs for a mutilate rogue in BiS gear, based on the simulation spreadsheet:
5% melee crit ~= 3.9% dps increase
4% physical damage ~= 2.5% dps increase
3% all crit ~= 2.7% dps increase

Of course these values will vary with gear and spec and most definitely vary for each raid member, but it is better than you taking a wild guess in saying that replacing 5% crit for 4% physical damage is not worth it.

hawtdawg · 06/14/09, 1:15 AM

If you aren't using FoK on Kologarn, Auriaya, Freya, Thorim, Razorscale and Mimiron, you aren't doing as much damage as you could.