Instead of a 51 / 7/ 13 , how would a 51 / 5/ 15 fair?

Taking those 2 points out of precision and putting them into Elusivness essentially giving us a 2 min vanish ( a poor mans AR if you wish ).

I realise that this increases the HIT needed from gear but i seem to always find myself fluctuating ~ 400 + hit .

With the spell hit without precision being 446 ( i think) its not really so far out of reach.

I read alot how combat can pull ahead of mutilate on certain fights ( XT heart eg) because of the ability to use cooldowns at key points. Vanish @ 2 min CD would essentially give the MUTI rogue some CDS to use @ key times like XTs heart.

I couldnt find this option in Alds spreadsheet to test.

Quick napkin math - it would fair significantly worse.

Remember that a) gearing to hit the new spell hit cap may cost you dps elsewhere (opportunity cost), b) hit beyond the spell hit cap is NOT a worthless stat - still has a half-decent AEP value - so getting rid of precision should be weighed not simply as the cost in reaching hit cap once again, but also the cost in AEP from the additional white hit you've lost anyway.

I kinda agree, I like MP a bit more than the theoretical dps gains in taking TTT. What I have found is in a strait-up standup fight, TTT pulls ahead because of the extra energy gains and the additional crits for rupture, and your DP stack refreshes "halfway decent" to where you can @100 energy, Envenom>Mut>Mut>Pool energy to 35-50 and have roughly 3-4 stacks of DP for another envenom. But even with that, i'm finding that I can only get about 2-3 envenoms inbetween ruptures.

But here comes the problem. DP has a very low timeframe where it atcually is able to do full 5stack damage even in standup fights. Add to that the fact that trash and most bosses with gtfo/target swithing strats, you are forced to blow some 2-3pt envenoms and in some cases, evis, just to keep your snd up. With MP and correct energy pooling, you can get a good 4-5 4/5pt envenoms in inbetween ruptures. And if you can time your envenoms inbetween DP ticks as well as correct energy pooling, you'll rarely ever proc a DP tick below a 4stack DP.

Me personally, I feel that yes, crunching the numbers, and in a perfect world, TTT does a small margin more dps. But in practice, your dps would be alot higher with MP. Mobility has always been our downfall, which utterly destroys the amount of strong envenoms we are able to dish out without losing high DP stack uptimes. But again, that is my personal preference. What you do with those 3 points is entirely up to you.

Turn the tables only affects combo moves; in this case, only Mutilate.

Your conclusions are still correct - in an ideal environment TTT is slightly better (although not necessarily - depending on weapon speed and hit, you may find that 1 MP or 2MP and 2/1TTT is better, even in an ideal setting), but in practice many rogues choose to take 3MP.

Good catch, @work so I couldn't verify.

One quick question, probably allready covered in this thread, but not neccessarily with up-to-date data.

I haven't seen any good number crunching or finalizations on speed pots and bloodlust. After some napkin math, it seems that saving your speed pots for times outside of BL would generally provide a better dps boost due to the diminishing returns of our allready-hasted attacks from SnD. But you have many variables. Such as percentage based haste versus cumulitave based haste. After bloodlust, SnD, and gear, i've seen my swing times go as low as .3 and .5 seconds, the math doesnt seem worth it to blow a speed pot inside that timeframe.

Some hard data and/or number crunching would be nice to see to try and prove and/or disprove that. And if it has been done allready in this thread, could I request that be included into the front post?

There is no diminishing returns for the hasted attacks as far as I know. Also, blowing haste potion during bloodlust will provide more bonus due to the multiplicative combination of these two buffs.

There is a simple way to find what you search for. Decide on a time period where speccing into elusivenes provides the most benefit. Then first, go insert the +hit gear you found to Aldriana's spreadsheet and see how much dps you lose using them instead of the best in slot gear with the normal spec. See the damage loss within that time range you have decided. Then calculate the energy gains from the extra overkill, turn it into mutilate and envenom hits. Find out the damage gains from extra mutilates and envenoms.

If you find, speccing in elusiveness gives a damage gain in the best case (which I don't think), we can start discussing it.

Possible and optimal are two very different things, Gearing for that much hit would likely cost you other stats which would provide more dps. Additionally a point in precision, even above the spell cap, still adds a considerable amount of white hit, which is far from useless and, although I am not certain of this, probably more valuable than a small increase in overkill up time.

I was hoping to get some solid insight from the Warcraft forums before bringing it here (should of known better), but I've yet to see any proper analysis as to why a Mutilate Rogue would ever want to fill 5/5 Lethality over moving 2 points into picking up Fleet Footed. The original spec and math I did are located in this post: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Best Mutilate Spec, and you aren't using it

To put it simply, Lethality is a god awful talent. For every talent point spent Lethality, a player actually only receives a 3% total damage increase on their combo-generating crits. For an Assassination Rogue, the Lethality bonus only affects their Mutilate crits, of which is a very small fraction of their total overall damage. Part of the math is slightly off in the original post, but basically to calculate your Mutilate crit damage you use the formula CritFraction = 2*MutCritRate / (1+MutCritRate), which you then plug into TotalDamageIncrease = SpecialFraction * CritFraction * LethalityIncrease, where SpecialFraction is the % of the total damage that special is.

You can plug in numbers from any parse, but truth be told 2 points in Lethality are worth less than a 1% damage increase. Let's compare that to the alternative, 15% run speed. One doesn't need to raid long as a Rogue to realize the significance on DPS maximizing time on target has. In current content, Ulduar is not movement-friendly in the slightest, even if it is something as simple as moving to the other side of Hodir for a buff or switching arms/dodging a lazer on Kologarn.

In TBC, Cat's Swiftness (8% run speed) was found to pull ahead a lot of the other DPS enchants both mathematically (2 seconds/min movement) and from utility (faster reaction time). I would imagine that a run speed of double that would be even significantly more dominant when compared to a talent dump that gives only a fraction of a percent damage increase. Even if we were to do a break down of which bosses Fleet Footed completely dominates on (Yogg/Freya/Mim) compared to those it doesn't, the fact remains that a .5-.8% damage increase is ridiculously small for 2 talents even from a min/max perspective, where it can easily get lost in the RNG of Mutilate cycles and crits itself. You could probably drop the entire talent and not see much of a difference, yet raid one night with the 15% increase and it's almost a completely game.

So why aren't Mutilate Rogues being encouraged to get Fleet Footed over Lethality?

I was hoping to get some actual math behind this (I'd appreciate it if you could), but taking what you state (3.6 seconds a minute for equality), how are you not moving that much in Ulduar? Take your example of my example, on Hodir. A pillar appears on the opposite side near the tank. Your movement time into it does not affect time on target, but the time spent inside that pillar has a drastic affect on your DPS. Moving slowly into it can account for hundreds of DPS...not to mention the time off target from getting unlucky with the flash freeze drops. How significant would that movement speed be in a fight that only lasts a few minutes?

In a perfect world you won't get bombs from XT, you won't get slag pot or flame jets on Ignis, all the adds will run to you on Thorim and Razorscale, and your Auriya fear dispels will go off the instant it is cast. But that isn't how Ulduar works, and everyone knows this. Unless all of your guild's hard mode strategies somehow keep a boss planted in one location and you never have to move or change targets, I don't see how 3-4 seconds of movement in a minute isn't typical on these fights that are less movement oriented.

I don't need to really go into fights like Mim/Freya/Yogg/Alg to explain the significance of movement, but it's just amazing to me that it gets so undervalued as melee. I mean your comment on Yogg says that 5 seconds of movement a minute is marginal...seriously? I don't know if you've tried one light but melee have to DPS constrictors at random locations while still maximizing portal time and brain DPS. Have you been rooted on Freya? Do you just feint overloads and Mim shocks? I don't get it, but I guess some Rogues just never have to move in Ulduar. WTB a mod that tracks your time out of melee range of a target.