Elitist Jerks Pocket Guide to WOTLK (Updated for 3.3)

 06/29/09, 9:18 PM #1126 • Aldriana Mike Tyson   Aldriana Night Elf Rogue   Doomhammer As I say: the math has been done previously in a number of different places, and I'm disinclined to repeat it when you can simply go look it up. Similarly, the fight by fight analysis of how much running one does has been performed, so I don't want to dwell on it too much. However, in addressing a couple of your immediate points: 1) Yes, you get bombed on XT. The question is how much. First note that Light Bombs don't cost you any DPS at all, so we're only worrying about gravity bombs from a DPS perspective - those are the only ones that you lose time on target. So, how often do you typically get gravity bombed on an XT hard kill? Well, on a recent kill, my guild saw 24 gravity bombs on an 8:23 kill. 24 gravity bombs on 25 players averages less than 1 bomb per person per kill - and, timewise, it's one gravity bomb per person every 524 seconds, on average. Meaning that, in order to average 3.6 second of movement, that gravity bomb would need to force you to perform over 31 seconds of movement - which it clearly doesn't. I'd say each gravity bomb forces maybe 6 to 8 seconds of movement, meaning that you would need to get bombed 4 or more times per fight to *break even*. That is, every time you get bombed less than 4 times per kill you'd be better off without runspeed. Only on those attempts that you get bombed *more than 4* times will it be worth it to have run speed. And while that may on occasion happen, it's clearly the exception and not the rule. Thus, on average, you're better going with DPS talents rather than run speed. 2) When you perform the same calculation for Ignis, you get generally the same conclusion - on average, the number of times you get potted per fight is well below what you would need to for run speed to be worth it. 3) Hodir, admittedly, has the aspect of moving to beams which I initially neglected - however, 1 second of movement to get in beam costs you a lot less damage than 1 second of movement to get into DPS range to start with - it's the difference between going from 0% damage to 100% damage versus going from 100% damage to 150% damage. Thus, you'd need even more than that 3.6 seconds of movement getting to beams for it to be worthwhile. And I just don't see that happening. In short: the answer to "why Lethality instead of Fleet Footed" is "because it's better". If you have some numbers to support that alternative conclusion, by all means provide them. But if you're simply at the level of "it feels like this should be better", all I can say is "that's not what the numbers show" and refer you to read the existing discussion(s).
 06/29/09, 9:52 PM #1127 Vistal Banned   Vistal Undead Mage   Illidan I've searched "fleet", "fleet footed" etc. on every thread here. There is no math on any of the posts, there's one that discusses Fleet Footed vs CQC (where you mention 3.6 seconds but no math), a few discussing FF for Naxx and after the Unholy Aura nerf, and then there's TBC discussion about Fleet Footed and Cat's where you say "Also, part of the benefit of effects like Fleet Footed is not even in their direct damage contribution. On a fight like Felmyst the extra run speed can help get you out of the way of his various attacks more quickly, which has no implications to DPS but large implications to suvivability; hence, the exact DPS benefit would not be a notably helpful quantity in terms of assessing value." Should I be using something other than the search function or a different word?
06/29/09, 10:33 PM   #1128
Feist-Mok
Im***est.

Human Rogue

Ysera
 Originally Posted by Vistal Should I be using something other than the search function or a different word?
"Run Speed" and "Cat's Swiftness"

 06/30/09, 4:53 AM #1129 Subinagui Glass Joe   Subinagui Night Elf Rogue   The Venture Co (EU) sorry to change subject slightly but I am lolfailing to understand something rogue DPS related. I have been playing for ages, solely on my rogue so do know a bit. I had been using the usual 15/51/5 spec CQCombat with Calamity's and Kinetic Ripper then changed my spec up a bit to try out Eviscerate rotation (got bored). I specced in Imp Evis and removed blood spatter - putting the extra point somewhere i don't remember but in a place i already had talents. While I was using this 5CP Eviscerate and SnD spam routine my DPS was higher (significantly). I maintained my own personal 315 hit rating, regardless of raid setup, and gemmed Expertise massively (still on 34/34 on gear without gem). Any real reason that my DPS was higher? I don't understand why when the tried and tested specs etc are obviously meant to be better. Currently back on the regular spec because apparently that spec was noob regardless of easy 6ks on boss fights. I hope that it isn't anything too obvious that I am just not seeing.
 06/30/09, 6:05 AM #1130 Kenho Glass Joe   Kenho Undead Rogue   Hyjal (EU) Hi, Since I am reading the discuss about ArPen I am worried about something... does it more relevant to stack ArPen to 100% than 90%? I mean, does the increase dps i get from 90 to 100% is better than 80 to 90%? (assuming i'm still hit&exp capped) In this case, I'll tend toward the 100%. Thx.
 06/30/09, 7:05 AM #1131 Lieska Von Kaiser   Lieska Human Rogue   Moonglade (EU) The Mutilate spreadsheet shows Fleet Footed as around 0.67% dps loss on stationary fights for me when I go with 1/3 Master Poisoner. It could certainly be classified as a flavour choice, but as such the potential benefits are quite significant compared to the sacrifice. Master Poisoner (or TTT) seems the clear choice for the talent to drop if you go down that route.
06/30/09, 7:17 AM   #1132
mofidik
Piston Honda

Doomhammer (EU)
 Originally Posted by Subinagui sorry to change subject slightly but I am lolfailing to understand something rogue DPS related. I have been playing for ages, solely on my rogue so do know a bit. I had been using the usual 15/51/5 spec CQCombat with Calamity's and Kinetic Ripper then changed my spec up a bit to try out Eviscerate rotation (got bored). I specced in Imp Evis and removed blood spatter - putting the extra point somewhere i don't remember but in a place i already had talents. While I was using this 5CP Eviscerate and SnD spam routine my DPS was higher (significantly). I maintained my own personal 315 hit rating, regardless of raid setup, and gemmed Expertise massively (still on 34/34 on gear without gem). Any real reason that my DPS was higher? I don't understand why when the tried and tested specs etc are obviously meant to be better. Currently back on the regular spec because apparently that spec was noob regardless of easy 6ks on boss fights. I hope that it isn't anything too obvious that I am just not seeing.
How did you test this? Respeccing for a tested to be inferior spec as well as gemming expertise when you're already way over the cap (the cap is 26) makes pants on the head sense.

 06/30/09, 7:55 AM #1133 Ravnos Glass Joe   Ravalicious Troll Rogue   Tichondrius Where else would you wear your pants?! Unless you tested your new spec in a raid environment with full buffs/debuffs over and extended period of time you can't be sure of anything.
06/30/09, 9:04 AM   #1134
Istaril
Piston Honda

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Subinagui sorry to change subject slightly but I am lolfailing to understand something rogue DPS related. I have been playing for ages, solely on my rogue so do know a bit. I had been using the usual 15/51/5 spec CQCombat with Calamity's and Kinetic Ripper then changed my spec up a bit to try out Eviscerate rotation (got bored). I specced in Imp Evis and removed blood spatter - putting the extra point somewhere i don't remember but in a place i already had talents. While I was using this 5CP Eviscerate and SnD spam routine my DPS was higher (significantly). I maintained my own personal 315 hit rating, regardless of raid setup, and gemmed Expertise massively (still on 34/34 on gear without gem). Any real reason that my DPS was higher? I don't understand why when the tried and tested specs etc are obviously meant to be better. Currently back on the regular spec because apparently that spec was noob regardless of easy 6ks on boss fights. I hope that it isn't anything too obvious that I am just not seeing.
Couple explanations; 1) You lack a bleed damage buff (Mangle, etc), making rupture less efficient or 2) your ArP is ridiculously good (which doesn't seem to be the case) or 3) You're fighting fights where Rupture doesn't have time to tick or 4) You're bad at managing your rupture uptime or 5) You're wrong.

Want to try it out? Plug your info into Mavanas's spreadsheet, set up an eviscerate cycle in the "DPS strat" tab. Give us a 300 iteration comparison of a rupture cycle vs an eviscerate one in your gear.

06/30/09, 9:58 AM   #1135
Maestroquark
What Would You Have Me Do?

Ramala
Orc Rogue

No WoW Account
 Originally Posted by Aldriana it's the difference between going from 0% damage to 100% damage versus going from 100% damage to 150% damage.
Storm Power is multiplicative, right? This would increase Lethality's value on Hodir.

I was a fan of Fleet Footed for Mutilate back when it was my only spec. Lethality does pretty much suck, and in an ideal world I'd still like to see Lethality be 3/3 for the same benefit so you could pick FF up for no DPS loss. However, now switching between Mutilate and Combat you have to ask which fights are you truly using Mutilate to its best strengths? Stationary fights with long time on target. You're trying to compensate for one of Mutilate's weaknesses when you really shouldn't be Mutilate for those fights to begin with if you have a choice.

Cally - EJBSG 27; Dee Baltar - EJBSG 22; Tory - EJBSG 20; Leoben - EJBSG 19; Helo - EJBSG 14; Starbuck - EJBSG 12

 07/01/09, 3:57 AM #1136 Aéquitas Von Kaiser     Aéquitas Blood Elf Rogue   Frostmane (EU) Does anyone on the PTR know how the bosses are classified in the Tournament? I was wondering if murder would still be a good choice for mutilate in 3.2. I'm guessing its 3 murderable and 3 non-murderable bosses + Worms (beast) + Yeti (beast) - Demon summoned by the warlock (demon) + PvP fight (humanoid) - Twin Valkeries (undead?) - Anub the Traitor King part 2 (undead) Can anyone confirm this? Cause looking at the achievements the Yeti is a fight with lots of Kobold adds which would probably favour combat. That would leave only 2 out of 6 bosses on which murder would benefit me. Might be a good time to start thinking about picking something else instead. If one of those 2 isn't murderable then it's definately time to drop it. Guessing 2 points in TTT or Fleet footed might be nice for someone like me who prefers mainly playing mutilate and occasionaly switching to combat for certain bosses.
 07/01/09, 1:57 PM #1137 chalon Founder of the Chalonverse   Chalon Night Elf Rogue   No WoW Account According to MMO champ, I think there's also Gormok the Impaler, which will be a Humanoid if it's like the other Magnataurs. Also, Kobolds are Humanoid as well. So overall, I think there will be 4 fights where Murder comes into play, and 3 fights where it doesn't.
 07/02/09, 4:03 AM #1138 Deadlyshade Glass Joe   Deadlyshade Night Elf Rogue   Magtheridon combat specs I've yet to understand the dps difference between 15/51/5 and 18/51/2. I understand that the poison is stronger with 18/51/2 ,although it lacks energy,but is it worse or better than the standard combat spec? Would be really helpful to understand if one is actually better than the other seeing as how I've seen many now using 18/51/2 while others remain with the standard spec. Or is it just a prefence to combat specced players?
07/02/09, 6:09 AM   #1139
snowman2050
Von Kaiser

Orc Rogue

Tarren Mill (EU)
 Originally Posted by Deadlyshade I've yet to understand the dps difference between 15/51/5 and 18/51/2. I understand that the poison is stronger with 18/51/2 ,although it lacks energy,but is it worse or better than the standard combat spec? Would be really helpful to understand if one is actually better than the other seeing as how I've seen many now using 18/51/2 while others remain with the standard spec. Or is it just a prefence to combat specced players?
18/51/2 requires a tight rotation, for example I currently run to 2s/5r. With a bleed bot in the raid I have the full benefit of maximum bleed damage, so it is within my interest to keep rupture up 100% of the time. 15/51/5 is a pretty standard spec for the majority of combat rogues who like a little freedon with their combo points and energy, as this spec would normally see a 4s/5r/5e rotation.

I would personally plug your info into a spreadsheet and see how it comes out best for you, or if your guild is flexible (I have the advantage of this) then try several specs and rotations out over a period of weeks to see what is most comfatable for your own playstyle and ability. With regards to DPS differences it all depends on the situation and how you play, I certainly prefer the 18/51/2 2s/5r build, see how you get on and try be nice to your raid leader so he/she understands your trying new specs and rotations and potentially will be fluxuating while you do this.

 07/11/09, 7:29 PM #1140 Meta|Gear Glass Joe   Norsemang Tauren Druid   Drak'Tharon Is the poison cap 241 or 315 for mutilate? I am getting conflicting answers from people

 Elitist Jerks Pocket Guide to WOTLK (Updated for 3.3)