Pocket Guide to WOTLK (Updated for 3.3) - Page 9

Echophantom · 12/02/08, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Lieto

Greetings,

I am new to the mutilate raiding and to wotlk so got few general questions + question concerning mixing some points around (talking about standard 51/13/7)
1. 5/5 Relentless over 5/5 Close quarter combat? Does extra chance on RS really better then 2% extra crit?
2. 3/3 Master poisoner worth ±nothing if your raid has DK or retri, right? Any other classes?
3. Any use to put 1 or 2 points into improved SnD instead of 5/5 precision? Might allow for an extra finisher here and there, no?
4. 51/7/13 <<< 51/13/7. Anyone has any estimation concerning dps difference of this 2 spec?

Thanks in advance.

1. Absolutely. With RS, Rupture costs nothing, Envenoms/Eviscerates cost 10 energy, etc. It provides much, much more energy (and thus much greater damage) than 2% crit will.

2. Once the hotfixes go through, MP doesn't stack with ret paladins or elemental shamans.

3. No, not really. Since every time you Envenom/Eviscerate you are refreshing SnD, the only thing more time on SnD would do is gives you more leniency to do it in. More leniency != better damage.

4. Spreadsheet it.

Arriana · 12/02/08, 12:00 PM

Thanks for this, Cally - very helpful, and in fact, enlightening.

One question: the fact that putting a fast dagger in your MH leads to increased dps for Mutilate really requires a paradigm shift and goes completely against the way rogue mechanics have worked over the last 4 years (instant attacks want highest range and, therefore, slow weapons). Does anyone foresee Blizzard making changes to, say, the way poisons work etc. in order to get rogues back to using slow daggers in the MH? It seems like they'll either need to do that, or give us more fast daggers that we can use in the MH. Looking at the available daggers in game right now, I have a feeling that Blizzard isn't quite realizing how the buff to poisons has actually affected our dps.

sdwwraith · 12/02/08, 12:52 PM

Awesome resource. Very much appreciated!

One thing I noticed is assault to rings (+32AP each) for enchanters seems to be missing from the 'Enchants' section.

Yuna · 12/02/08, 6:21 PM

I would be very happy, if someone could make a statement about the Weapon Speeds in more detail.For example when one dagger is 0,5 sek.slower, but have 26 dps more on it, which of the daggers is better.

sephfiroth · 12/02/08, 6:56 PM

Originally Posted by Yuna

I would be very happy, if someone could make a statement about the Weapon Speeds in more detail.For example when one dagger is 0,5 sek.slower, but have 26 dps more on it, which of the daggers is better.

http://shadowpanther.net/weapons-pve.htm

There is a section for MH, and a section for OH.

It weighs the speed, as well as the stats/DPS of the weapons too.

heres the link for just daggers

http://shadowpanther.net/daggers.htm

Arindelest · 12/02/08, 7:08 PM

Can people please *stop* linking Shadowpanther to answer gear questions? It's already been linked quite a few times recently, and more importantly it's just plain inaccurate.

There's no hard-and-fast rule about weapon speeds right now. Yes, it's better to have faster weapons for Mutilate. If you want to know which weapon is better, instead of asking, check the spreadsheet.

sephfiroth · 12/02/08, 7:17 PM

Originally Posted by Arindelest

Can people please *stop* linking Shadowpanther to answer gear questions? It's already been linked quite a few times recently, and more importantly it's just plain inaccurate.

There's no hard-and-fast rule about weapon speeds right now. Yes, it's better to have faster weapons for Mutilate. If you want to know which weapon is better, instead of asking, check the spreadsheet.

It seems fairly accurate to me.

Assuming you're special Hit capped, its easier to look at Shadowpanthers List of weapons which show stats/speeds/EPs as compared to the spreadsheet.

Echophantom · 12/02/08, 7:44 PM

Originally Posted by sephfiroth

It seems fairly accurate to me.

Assuming you're special Hit capped, its easier to look at Shadowpanthers List of weapons which show stats/speeds/EPs as compared to the spreadsheet.

Easier != better, or more accurate. Shadowpanther might give you a vague idea of what to look for, but the sheet is a much, much more accurate tool.

MasterDinadan · 12/03/08, 2:39 AM

If nothing else, get some EP values from the sheet, plug them into LootRank, and bookmark it. Bam, your own Shadowpanther style gear comparison, custom tailored to your spec and gear (I'm fairly certain that their loot list is more complete as well, Shadowpanther is missing a few things).

Lieto · 12/03/08, 3:45 AM

One fast question concerning 7/51/13:

Is it possible to say that Fist MH + Sword OH is best in terms of dps for a combat 7/51/13 build? Assuming that you take 4/5 sword spec. You will have 5% crit on mh for sinister strike glyph to proc more often and your sword OH with proc extra attacks from MH.

Raienna · 12/03/08, 9:34 AM

Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers

Also: check the spreadsheet. Try 7/51/13 with fist MH/sword OH and then try whatever the alternative spec is that you have in mind. Use whichever one makes a bigger number.

Leto · 12/03/08, 11:45 AM

Should we switch the advice paradigm back to slow mh, fast oh now, as a result of the discussion this thread?

It may be a bug, it may not, but it doesn't seem like something blizz would be rushing to fix, and the difference in poison applications is decently non-trivial.

Demi9OD · 12/03/08, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Leto

Should we switch the advice paradigm back to slow mh, fast oh now, as a result of the discussion this thread?

It may be a bug, it may not, but it doesn't seem like something blizz would be rushing to fix, and the difference in poison applications is decently non-trivial.

How much of a change can we expect to actually see from this? Would 1.8dp/1.3ip be the best combo possible?

Leto · 12/03/08, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Demi9OD

How much of a change can we expect to actually see from this? Would 1.8dp/1.3ip be the best combo possible?

Unless you perform more finishers than mutilates, you'll see more procs from the offhand than the main hand. Right now my ratio of mutilates to finishers is roughly 1.5:1, so I definitely get more procs from the oh than mh.

I'm not sure if 1.8/1.3 would be the best combo... it would if those are the speed daggers available to you. 1.3/1.3 is probably still better. The only thing that changed with this information is the relative frequency of procs from which hand.

evolart · 12/03/08, 10:47 PM

Loot-link seems pretty terrible...not sure why people suggest it so much.