Has anyone else found themself somewhat disappointed in this glyph? I really like it for the purposes of trash where a 2 or 3CP rupture might well last until the death of the trash mob, thereby adding my 300DPS or whatever to the mob if tanked by a feral.
On bosses, though, it as well seems to cause some cycle instability in that, due to oddities with "spell rank/duration" mechanics, you can't refresh a 5CP rupture with 3 seconds remaining with a 4CP Ruptuer (lasting 19 seconds), forcing one to wait on the duration to drop (wasting energy or refreshing HfB, which may well be the optimal time to do so), burn the CPs with an envenom and lose Rupture uptime (still worth more than envenom DPS, per the spreadsheet, ignoring the bonus to instant poison from the envenom buff being up) or mutilating again and wasting, at minimum, 1CP?
Has anyone else experienced this issue, and if so, which of the above choices do you go with (I'm assuming refreshing HfB if lower than like 15 seconds is probably optimal among the choices listed, though refreshing it at 15 seconds would rarely be my preference)?
Also, re: Sinister Revenge or Webbed Death as mainhand... the jury's still out. I tried out SR in the mainhand last night, but rarely got an opportunity to use it to full advantage as I was only in for Gluth, Loatheb, and a painful night of Thaddius attempts (a boss who we one-shot last week). Key feature of both Gluth and Loatheb is that every so often, you'll be running away from the boss to do something else, during which time your deadly poison stack might drop and if your mutilate doesn't refresh it, your envenom might not be usable.
I'll have to mess around with it a bit more.
I would just Envenom again while pooling energy to allow for more DP ticks.
Once Rupture is close to running out, I keep 4CP and pool some energy to decide what to do. Refresh SnD or HFB as neccessary or Rupture again.
I am having cycle nightmares with the rupture glyph to be honest. I tried to go back to a simply slice/rupture cycle with it using as short a slice combo point generator as possible (dropping the slice glyph along the way since it seemed pretty unnecessary) and things are messy as all get out. Sometimes it seems like 2s/5r is sustainable, sometimes it seems like 3s/5r is not sustainable. I don't have a good mod to watch the slice timer in the middle of the screen (any thoughts?), but regardless, once forced to refresh slice oddly with some arbitrary number of combo points, rupture uptime goes way, way down.
And this seems to vary from fight to fight in Naxx. I should note I'm doing this with combat, so the problem is not limited to mutilate.
So, the point here is that with the SnD and Rupture glyphs, no straight XsYr cycle is sustainable. A 5 point rupture lasts 20 seconds; the shortest SnD that can cover this is a 2-pointer. So it costs 7 combo points to do 2s5r; however, over the duration of the the rupture, you regenerate enough energy for about 7.5-8 Sinister Strikes - some of which crit, giving you perhaps 9 combo points on average. And Ruthlessness procs can add another one (or so) past that, giving you an average of maybe 10 combo points during your 5-pt rupture. Thus, keeping SnD and Rupture up is not enough to use all the combo points you're generating - hence, you want to do something with the extra ones. You could run, for instance, a 2s5r3e cycle or some such, but a straight SnD/Rupture cycle is going to be very wasteful.
So, the point here is that with the SnD and Rupture glyphs, no straight XsYr cycle is sustainable. A 5 point rupture lasts 20 seconds; the shortest SnD that can cover this is a 2-pointer. So it costs 7 combo points to do 2s5r; however, over the duration of the the rupture, you regenerate enough energy for about 7.5-8 Sinister Strikes - some of which crit, giving you perhaps 9 combo points on average. And Ruthlessness procs can add another one (or so) past that, giving you an average of maybe 10 combo points during your 5-pt rupture. Thus, keeping SnD and Rupture up is not enough to use all the combo points you're generating - hence, you want to do something with the extra ones. You could run, for instance, a 2s5r3e cycle or some such, but a straight SnD/Rupture cycle is going to be very wasteful.
4s/5r currently provides the best DPS for me, according to spreadsheet (with Energy Pooling).
I think the new rotatons are all above adjusting to the situation, in TBC the advice was, "Don't let SnD drop". Its very hard to let SnD drop now (unless fights have complete stops like Maxeena),
For people who too chap to afford Berserking for the time being im' curious to know what would the 2nd best enchant be? according to the spreadsheet mongoose seems to be but i find it hard to believe with it being pre-expac. it would be good to know b/c it will probably be the pvp enchant also
For people who too chap to afford Berserking for the time being im' curious to know what would the 2nd best enchant be? according to the spreadsheet mongoose seems to be but i find it hard to believe with it being pre-expac. it would be good to know b/c it will probably be the pvp enchant also
So, the point here is that with the SnD and Rupture glyphs, no straight XsYr cycle is sustainable. A 5 point rupture lasts 20 seconds; the shortest SnD that can cover this is a 2-pointer. So it costs 7 combo points to do 2s5r; however, over the duration of the the rupture, you regenerate enough energy for about 7.5-8 Sinister Strikes - some of which crit, giving you perhaps 9 combo points on average. And Ruthlessness procs can add another one (or so) past that, giving you an average of maybe 10 combo points during your 5-pt rupture. Thus, keeping SnD and Rupture up is not enough to use all the combo points you're generating - hence, you want to do something with the extra ones. You could run, for instance, a 2s5r3e cycle or some such, but a straight SnD/Rupture cycle is going to be very wasteful.
3 pt eviscerates are wasteful. You are basically just throwing combo points out the window if you are using eviscerate with 3 points. 3 pt evis is barely even energy efficient.
But try it out on the spreadsheet. You will probably find a XsYr cycle that is superior to any XsYrZe cycle you try. 4s/5e (SS and rupture glyph, no Snd) may seem "wasteful" because the cycle is usually lower than rupture's duration. However, we've been cutting our SnD's short forever, which is wasteful. Why not do the same with rupture? If I realize that my energy will cap before rupture ends, I'll just refresh rupture before the last tick. If it tells me a more powerful effect is already active (because I have AP procs up when I used my previous rupture) I'll just SS again to let rupture drop and then put it back up. I'm wasting 1-2 combo points by SSing when I have 5, but it's better than wasting 3 combo points popping a worthless finisher.
I would not. There has not much much structured testing regarding Mongoose in Wrath, and I'm pretty sure (based on my anecdotal and highly unscientific analysis of it) that Mongoose's proc rate has scaled down on the way to 80. That belief is not reflected in the spreadsheet since there's no hard data on it, but I'm pretty sure Mongoose is not genuinely desirable anymore.
I did some testing on Mongoose, and it's proc rate, while no longer the 1.2 PPM it was at 70, still seems to be at least 1 PPM. Meaning it's still clearly superior to everything other than Berserking.
Originally Posted by MasterDinadan
3 pt eviscerates are wasteful. You are basically just throwing combo points out the window if you are using eviscerate with 3 points. 3 pt evis is barely even energy efficient.
But try it out on the spreadsheet. You will probably find a XsYr cycle that is superior to any XsYrZe cycle you try. 4s/5e (SS and rupture glyph, no Snd) may seem "wasteful" because the cycle is usually lower than rupture's duration. However, we've been cutting our SnD's short forever, which is wasteful. Why not do the same with rupture? If I realize that my energy will cap before rupture ends, I'll just refresh rupture before the last tick. If it tells me a more powerful effect is already active (because I have AP procs up when I used my previous rupture) I'll just SS again to let rupture drop and then put it back up. I'm wasting 1-2 combo points by SSing when I have 5, but it's better than wasting 3 combo points popping a worthless finisher.
A 3 point eviscerate has higher damage per energy efficiency than a SS, so saying it's always wasteful is misleading. And I'm not really advocating a 2s5r3e cycle; once gear permits, however, I think a 3s5r5e cycle seems pretty strong - and all my estimates show that to be the case. It's entirely possible I've made a mistake, of course, and such cycles prove to be inferior; but I think it's easily possible that there's a bug in the spreadsheet as well, so I'm not sure I'd flat-out assume that a 3-finisher cycle isn't going to compete.
Assuming exactly 1 PPM, Enchant Weapon - Accuracy seems to be on par with Mongoose, with the difference being less than 1 DPS on mainhand and less than 3 DPS on offhand, while all other settings are at default values. So it's not "clearly superior" to that enchant, but probably to anything else.
For the gear I'm wearing right now, the spreadsheet says that my optimal cycle would be 4s/5r/4e, and I haven't had any trouble keeping it up in raids lately. There are even times that I still have a few seconds left on my slice where I can pool some energy before refreshing to a new 4 point slice and dice. I don't have the best gear yet, I'm sitting in mostly 10 man and heroic gear, with only a few pieces of 25 man, so at least for Combat spec (which I am) I can't see people in better gear not being able to sustain a similar 3 finisher cycle. However, I am pretty new to rogue theorycrafting, so somebody please correct me if I have a flawed point of view.
For the gear I'm wearing right now, the spreadsheet says that my optimal cycle would be 4s/5r/4e, and I haven't had any trouble keeping it up in raids lately. There are even times that I still have a few seconds left on my slice where I can pool some energy before refreshing to a new 4 point slice and dice. I don't have the best gear yet, I'm sitting in mostly 10 man and heroic gear, with only a few pieces of 25 man, so at least for Combat spec (which I am) I can't see people in better gear not being able to sustain a similar 3 finisher cycle. However, I am pretty new to rogue theorycrafting, so somebody please correct me if I have a flawed point of view.
It mainly depends on glyphs. If you go SnD, rupture, and SS then you can sustain a 3 finisher cycle pretty easily. If you glyph AR and drop one of the others, it's much harder. You can still do a three finisher cycle without a rupture glyph, but your rupture uptime will be lower. Under these circumstances a two finisher cycle may be more ideal, but you run into the problem of SnD and rupture both being cut short.
Assuming exactly 1 PPM, Enchant Weapon - Accuracy seems to be on par with Mongoose, with the difference being less than 1 DPS on mainhand and less than 3 DPS on offhand, while all other settings are at default values. So it's not "clearly superior" to that enchant, but probably to anything else.
The relevant point being if you're not getting Berserking because of price (and I definitely fall into this category, Berserking is not worth the mat cost to me with Abyss Crystals as expensive as they are currently on Dark Iron), you're probably not looking at Accuracy either. Mongoose is cheap as hell for similar benefits.
In the talent link for the Mutilate spec above: Why take Close Quarter Combat when Master Poisoner seems to be doing the same thing but for all types of attacks whereas the 3% in CQC only affect the melee attacks?
From what I can gather Master Poisoner will affect the whole raid and also affect the chance to poison crit?
Is the master poisoner +12% crit bug still around?
Am I missing something here?
In the talent link for the Mutilate spec above: Why take Close Quarter Combat when Master Poisoner seems to be doing the same thing? Also does the 3% in CQC only affect the melee attacks?
From what I can gather Master Poisoner will affect the whole raid and also affect the chance to poison crit?
Is the master poisoner +12% crit bug still around?
The reason is that Master Poisoner does not stack with Heart of the Crusader, which is a Paladin buff. If your raid composition doesn't have a Paladin with that talent, feel free to take MP instead. And no.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty
The reason is that Master Poisoner does not stack with Heart of the Crusader, which is a Paladin buff. If your raid composition doesn't have a Paladin with that talent, feel free to take MP instead. And no.
You are correct, but I think he is saying that those 3 points are interchangeable, except for the fact that if you spend the 3 in MP you will always have the same 3% crit from CQC, but when you are not with a Paladin your group will also.
I hadn't thought of it..not sure why. I think the reason it was worth mentioning is because it would make 54/10/7 a better 'cookie cutter' spec than 51/13/7. If you can only get one or the other...you should get MP because of the benefits it brings beyond just 3% crit for yourself.
You are correct, but I think he is saying that those 3 points are interchangeable, except for the fact that if you spend the 3 in MP you will always have the same 3% crit from CQC, but when you are not with a Paladin your group will also.
I hadn't thought of it..not sure why. I think the reason it was worth mentioning is because it would make 54/10/7 a better 'cookie cutter' spec than 51/13/7. If you can only get one or the other...you should get MP because of the benefits it brings beyond just 3% crit for yourself.
Am I missing something?
Well, most raids *will* have a Paladin with Heart of the Crusader, which is why the cookie-cutter spec has it; they are interchangeable as long as you don't have a paladin with Heart of the Crusader. As the pocket guide is mostly aimed at raiders, it's a given that the 3% crit buff will be taken care of by a Paladin.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty
Hi all, my first post here in EJ.
I have been a Rogue for a while, but mostly PvP and some lite 10 raids, Kara, things like that. Im planing on taking my Rogue to more of a PvE endgame style of play. Im currently 15/51/5 Combat/Swords raid spec. I plan on switching back to 51/13/7 Ass/Mut spec once I get a decent dagger. I say all this just to give a little back, and to explain Im about to ask something that might seem somewhat noobish to some, but stick with me. Here goes:
Expertise Rating
Boss dodge chance is thought to be between 6.25% and 6.5%.
For 6.5% boss dodge chance (26/26 expertise):
26 expertise (214 expertise rating) to cap.
16 expertise (132 expertise rating) to cap for rogues with 2/2 Weapon Expertise.
13 expertise (107 expertise rating) to cap for combat human rogues wielding a sword/mace.
I get you want to be at 26/26 to close the gap on raid boss dodge rating, but what does the number in parenthesis mean?
The following values assume 5/5 Precision, which should be included in all standard
PVE Mutilate and Combat builds.
Extra buffs or debuffs Specials Poisons White
None 99 315 755
Imp FF or Misery on target 99 237 755
Imp FF or Misery & Heroic Presence (draenei) 66 210 722
Now, hit is something Im having trouble completely wrapping my head around. How do you see what your "Special", "Poison" and "White" Hit Rating is currently? When I open my Character Info screen, I look under melee and I only see one Hit Rating. Maybe Im just over-complicating this or over-looking something. Then there is the possiblity that Im just down right dumb. But if someone wouldnt mind clearing these couple of questions up for me, it would be greatly appericated. Thanks and happy posting.
Expertise is a tricky statistic.
Every point of expertise removes 0.25% of dodge from boss attack table. When attacking from behind the boss level mob, it dodges about 6.25% - 6.5% of attacks (white attacks - autoattack , combo moves - e.g. sinister strike, or finishers e.g. rupture), to overcome it (and avoid dodged sinister strikes) you need 26 points of expertise (26*0.25 = 6.5).
Numbers in parenthesis are rating values. You can have only so much expertise from Your race abilities/talents. After that You need expertise from gear. It comes as expertise rating. At level 80 , 8.1974973675 expertise rating points give one expertise point.
---
About hit. Your melee panel shows only Your hit rating. Since You are 15/51/5 sword combat rogue, You probably have 5 points in precision talent. Every point there converts into one percent of hit. Those percents are not shown in Your melee tab, but You can count with them.
Now you have different damage abilities,
1. White attacks , which are your normal weapon autoattack damage (and shows as white numbers in blizzard default user interface, thus the name white)
2. Yellow special attacks ( combo moves and finishers, like sinister strike, mutilate, eviscerate, rupture) which are called yellow.
3. Poisons which are also yellow but follow different rules, since they are not physical but poison damage.
Your hit rating and percent is same for all of them. For example, if You have 5pt precision and 200 hit rating (about 6% melee hit, and 7-8% spellhit) Your hit value for melee attacks (white and special) is about 11% , which means that Your special attacks will not miss (since their hitcap is 8% - people are still arguing about exact value for wotlk) but Your white attacks will have 16% miss chance (latest theory tells that base miss chance is 27% for dual wielding , 8% base + 19% dual wield penalty)
Your poisons follow spellcasters hit calculations, their hitcap is somewhere at 16% (or 17?) so with 200 rating after precision You will have some 12.6% hit with poisons which makes Your miss about 3.4% or 4.4%. Of course in raids You might have 3% spellhit buff from shadowpriests or druids so reaching poison hit cap is not very hard to achieve.
Well, most raids *will* have a Paladin with Heart of the Crusader, which is why the cookie-cutter spec has it; they are interchangeable as long as you don't have a paladin with Heart of the Crusader. As the pocket guide is mostly aimed at raiders, it's a given that the 3% crit buff will be taken care of by a Paladin.
But doesn't Totem of Wrath also render MP useless? At least in spreadsheet they "share" the same slot.
But doesn't Totem of Wrath also render MP useless? At least in spreadsheet they "share" the same slot.
Yes it is. A ret pally OR elemental shaman can provide the buff, but elemental shaman are not all that common these days because enhancement does more DPS. Hopefully the upcoming patch makes elemental more appealing with its buffs.
Also, I don't think 54/10/7 is the best way to go if you want to get MP. I'd rather take points out of Ruthlessness or Turn the Tables, rather than CQC. I might even opt to take some of those points from Blood Spatter if I had to. There are all pretty close, but don't just assume that those points have to come out of CQC.
I would never suggest taking 3 points out of Close-Quarters Combat for Master Poisoner. You're taking 3% melee crit that is always present, and instead replacing it with 3% crit that is only present when your target is poisoned. If there is an Elemental Shaman or Ret Pally in your group, that extra 3% crit is gone. So much for those talent points.
A 3 point eviscerate has higher damage per energy efficiency than a SS, so saying it's always wasteful is misleading. And I'm not really advocating a 2s5r3e cycle; once gear permits, however, I think a 3s5r5e cycle seems pretty strong - and all my estimates show that to be the case. It's entirely possible I've made a mistake, of course, and such cycles prove to be inferior; but I think it's easily possible that there's a bug in the spreadsheet as well, so I'm not sure I'd flat-out assume that a 3-finisher cycle isn't going to compete.
Well, I guess I'm still a bit uncertain here and, honestly, the spreadsheet offers up a lot of maybes to me. I sure don't see myself trying out 3-point eviscerates and for the time being I dropped the SnD glyph for the AR glyph. Now, that's easily reversed. (Note, I did so because having Killing Spree on a 1-min cooldown makes a rogue feel somewhat less irrelevant on trash and in 5-mans, nevermind the benefit of having AR come back up a minute faster).
I'll go back to the 3-finisher cycle this week; it just felt... terrible. The dps seemed awful and untalented, un-glyphed eviscerates seem like an absolutely awful use of 5 combo points. I realize I'm probably missing some sort of 2nd order effect here, but a 2-finisher cycle would seem to have an awful lot more rupture uptime than a 3-finisher cycle. And rupture gets dual-talented in my current build, while eviscerate gets no boosts. Adding a 5-point eviscerate to the cycle would seem to hack rupture uptime.
That said, cycle clipping has been the issue of great discomfort that Aldriana identified. The 2s5r doesn't work. Eventually there are too many combo points. So then it's 4s5r and now here we are sitting around with a longer slice than expected and refreshing it quite a bit too soon, or SS-ing again at the end of the rupture cycle because we can't refresh it early (either we don't want to, we're not permitted to by the game mechanics, or both).
Perhaps if the 3-finisher cycle were just consistent, that'd be worth something. But if it's replacing quality rupture uptime with low quality eviscerates, then is it really? Or do I have to adopt to a much more dynamic cycle to do high dps at this point? These are the tricky questions.
Well, I guess I'm still a bit uncertain here and, honestly, the spreadsheet offers up a lot of maybes to me. I sure don't see myself trying out 3-point eviscerates and for the time being I dropped the SnD glyph for the AR glyph. Now, that's easily reversed. (Note, I did so because having Killing Spree on a 1-min cooldown makes a rogue feel somewhat less irrelevant on trash and in 5-mans, nevermind the benefit of having AR come back up a minute faster).
I'll go back to the 3-finisher cycle this week; it just felt... terrible. The dps seemed awful and untalented, un-glyphed eviscerates seem like an absolutely awful use of 5 combo points. I realize I'm probably missing some sort of 2nd order effect here, but a 2-finisher cycle would seem to have an awful lot more rupture uptime than a 3-finisher cycle. And rupture gets dual-talented in my current build, while eviscerate gets no boosts. Adding a 5-point eviscerate to the cycle would seem to hack rupture uptime.
That said, cycle clipping has been the issue of great discomfort that Aldriana identified. The 2s5r doesn't work. Eventually there are too many combo points. So then it's 4s5r and now here we are sitting around with a longer slice than expected and refreshing it quite a bit too soon, or SS-ing again at the end of the rupture cycle because we can't refresh it early (either we don't want to, we're not permitted to by the game mechanics, or both).
Perhaps if the 3-finisher cycle were just consistent, that'd be worth something. But if it's replacing quality rupture uptime with low quality eviscerates, then is it really? Or do I have to adopt to a much more dynamic cycle to do high dps at this point? These are the tricky questions.
In fights where I have tried to mainly follow a 4s/5r cycle, Rupture gets to around 10% of the damage done. When I stick with 4s/5r (sometimes it gets converted into 5s/5r), I pool energy and overwrite SnD. I also find 4s/5r to be a good rotation for fights with adds or mechanics that might require me to switch off the boss as it becomes more easy to maintain compared to 5s/5r/5e (which I was trying before). I still am able to squeeze in some Eviscerates here and there (4-5cps) but they represent now 1% of the total dmg done for me. I am definitely doing more DPS as 4s/5r and it will improve as I go for optimal Rupture uptime, will know when my guild gets around to Patchwerk.
There's clearly something weird going on with the cycle calculations regarding two-finisher and three-finisher cycles for Combat. For example, the sheet is showing a loss of 80 Rupture DPS going from 3s/5r to 3s/5r/1e, although it's pretty clear that you generate more than enough extra combo points (and have the extra ~28 energy to do a 1pt Eviscerate) without losing any Rupture uptime.
12/10/08, 5:02 PM
Similar Threads
