On the topic of CB FoK, it seems that the projectile time has an effect on the "100%" crit chance given by CB. I put 100% in quotes because it seems if a certain, very small amount of time passes between the first FoK target being hit and the later ones, your Cold Blood effect can drop as your knives go to their targets.

Probably not an important bug as far as DPS goes, but I found it interesting as far as CB mechanics are concerned.

The MP bug gives 15% crit, 3 for each application of DP, right? If there are two mutilate rogues in the raid, does it stack for 30% crit? Or have they acknowledged and hotfixed the 15% crit without anyone testing?

I can confirm that it was not hotfixed as of right now.

If you run Wound/Deadly, would the wound stack contribute another 3%?

As an interesting side effect of this bug, run AEP stats with 15 or 30 talent points in the Critical Strike Chance buff on the Roguecraft sheet. If you haven't gemmed your gear yet, you are best off throwing pure hit in every yellow slot, and expertise in red if the set bonus is worth it. Silly to gem on a bug that could be hot fixed any day, sure, but +12 hit gems are cheap if you haven't already socketed higher quality gems.

Regarding the Master Poisoner bug, I did some testing with a guild Paladin, and we noticed that the HotC debuff is not placed on the mob if I get my poison up first. But if he judged the mob, then my poison was applied, the HotC debuff stayed on. Obviously I'm not sure which crit bonus effect was being used at that point.

So I'm wondering, will the MP effects overwrite that of Paladins' Heart of the Crusader and Shamans' Totem of Wrath no matter what, or does the poison have to be up first (and always) before a judgment is cast?

For what it is worth, I added 690 critical strike rating to Deadly Poison in the "OH Weapon" hidden sheet and hit didn't come even close to AP.

Interestingly enough, Envenom's DPS was just 9 short of Rupture's.

I'm glad I'm not going crazy, I wonder what's triggering it.

Interesting, I guess modifying the talent setting with 15 or 30 points broke something in the sheet.

When do you cast it?

Anytime during vortex. Slightly before too, as long as your Killing Spree doesn't end before Vortex actually starts.

Experienced the same since we started him in 10man and I was running 10/17/44, using shadowstep every vortex makes you avoid the damage from it completely + you can damage him while standing on the floor beneath him.

Hmmm.. I was doing some target dummy parses tonight to see if the MP bug was still in and I have not seen any results. Here's the data I ended up with after beating on a dummy for awhile without letting DP fall off. I literally just started SnD and I was eviscerating at 2-3 CPs just to keep SnD going:

Melee: 3317 hits - 35.3% crits
Mutilate: 608 hits - 48.4% crits
Eviscerate: 110 hits - 40.9% crits

Funny enough, I was expecting a higher crit rate on my regular melee hits but turns out Eviscerate came out on top. Sure, not a very large sample for the Eviscerates but still quite surprising. I'd like to see other folks post their results if they have been able to reproduce this bug.

Based on our Naxx raid tonight it was still active for sure. Everybody was well above their expected crit %s in Recount.

Regarding the Master Poisoner bug, it was hotfixed on Bonechewer somewhere around 8pm PST (didn't check the exact time between pulls - no restart or anything. Our mages went from 100% crit rate (litterally, 100% on some Sarth attempts) to their standard ~50% or whatever. It was definitely 15% per rogue, stacking to upwards of 60% raid crit, if you brought that many rogues.

While I doubt they hotfixed it simultaneously on all realms, I would expect that if it was hotfixed on one, it'll be done shortly on the others. Don't count on it for your raids tomorrow :P

I thought maybe there was some kind of silent agrement that you didn't mention the bug in here or something. For the past months (since the wotlk talent release) I've wondered why it was never mentioned in here anywhere.
Its funny how once it is brought up in here it is suddenly hotfixed (according to the above poster; it still worked yeterday for us with 2 Master Poisoner rogues in raid), it sure is an influencial forum or maybe its just a coincident.

Anyways, if none of the leading rogues in here knew about the bug it just goes to show that you do far too little testing :-)
I'm not being disrespectfull, but sometimes I get the feeling that you test too little and are too confident that the theories and spreadsheet are right.
If you did some testing you would for instance also find out that the Mutilate attack primarily procs the poison on the OH. I'm very sure about this, but yet I can't find anyone else mentioning it in here. If that is indeed the case isn't it then an interesting mechanic?

Too bad the bug is getting hotfixed, it was fun while it lasted :-)

Of course its the right thing to do to fix such a bug, its just very hard to justify taking a rogue over a hunter now. I hope they get "hotfixed" soon too

The reason people don't test something like Master Poisoner is because there's nothing to test. It's not a complicated talent by any means, and there are many other new additions or changes since 3.0 that demand more attention than something as simple as a "increases crit chance by X%" talent.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. What do you mean by "primarily procs the poison on the OH"? Are you suggesting that Mutilate procs the OH poison at a higher chance than it should?

I believe he suggests mutilate proccing poisons in a certain order, being the poison on the offhand first and the poison on the main hand second. This would only matter a bit if there is an actual timeframe in between the poison procs where master poisoner or the savage combat debuff can start to apply so it affects the main hand poison proc. And that, I do not know.

edit: If he does mean that the offhand poison procs more then the mainhand one... doesn't nearly every mutilate rogue atm run deadly poison on the offhand and instant poison on the main hand? So that would be pretty normal Oo

There's a reason we trust the theorycrafters and their tools on this site: they do their homework. I'm not one of them, but I've been here long enough and read enough posts to know they never make a factual statement about any mechanic unless they've collected data on it and done the equivalent maths. Period.

Now on with your own claim. Where's your data to back this up? As I mentioned above, there's a theorycrafting standard established here requires data to be provided if someone makes a claim about mechanics. In this case I think a combat log would be most helpful to determine if you're right.

On a side note, something like this was mentioned months ago but never followed up on. It's possible it fell through the cracks, was deemed not true, or perhaps that it wasn't a big enough difference to worry about in the general DPS case (where most of the work is done).

I don't quite understand why the theories don't need to be tested. For instance you just assume in the spreadsheet that if you do 100 Mutilate attacks, the poison procs from the Mutilate attacks will be evenly distributed between MH posion procs and OH poison procs (if I read the formulas correct).
What if it wasn't so? What if the vast majority of the poison procs from Mutilate attacks came from the OH? Wouldn't that be interesting? It seems to me your standard answer in here is "No, because its not supposed to be like that according to the theory".
I probably just have a different approach than most of you. I like to prove that the theories are right (and the dummies are gods gift to a tester btw). And I mean that in a totally not disrespectfull way. For the record I have the highest respect for the work this rogue community put in! The "non-testing policy" just annoys me a little.
Why wouldn't you wan't to take the master poisoner bug into consideration when advicing people on spec until its gone?
The biggest fault you could make so far was to allow a non-master poisoner rogue in your raid. I know its a bug, but still..

I will test that Mutilate thing again soon (I only tested it at 70 when I was bored from not raiding) and post some data, maybe I'm all wrong. That is kind of why I'm asking and why I asked once earlier (which was never noticed), I would very much prefer if someone else can confirm what I saw back then. Maybe I wasn't paying attention to some factor that was scewing the results, who knows..

Sorry for taking this thread a little of topic btw.

Why on earth would the procs be evenly distributed when the procrates on various distinct poisons are different?

Unless you're talking about running wound/crippling or something, you are going to have varying procrates. As was mentioned above, if you run Instant Main, Deadly Off, well, Instant Poison has a 20% proc chance, and Deadly Poison has a 30% proc chance. Over the aforementioned 100 mutilates, you would expect, (and the theorycrafting would model), 20 instant Poison procs, and 30 Deadly Poison procs.

More offhand procs than mainhand procs, and nothing 'interesting' about it. Now if you mean to tell me that you are instead observing 50 deadly procs in that 100 mutilate attacks, and 10 Instant procs, well, that would be very interesting and I would encourage you to post some combatlogs to backup such a claim.

I did some more testing on the Master Poisoner bug last night, and I think it got hot fixed. I stacked up 5 DP on a training dummy and then made about 500 auto attacks and got a 26% crit rate (We were expecting 28% for unbugged MP or 40% for bugged MP). The difference between .26 and .28 given this sample size is not significant, though if we expect .40 it certainly is a significant difference.

Just to make sure, I had my friend some hit it for a while. He only stayed about about 80 hits and then left, but he got 11% crit rate. We were expecting either 12% or 24%, so once again we conclude that MP is NOT adding 15% crit.

Now, I don't know if I missed a step in reproducing the bug, but it seems clear to me that MP was hotfixed recently if it ever was bugged.

So looks like I'm going to keep rolling combat for a while.