When I last tested it, Mutilate had two chances to proc the off hand poison and one chance to proc the main hand poison. No idea why it's the off hand in particular. Stormstrike had the same effect for enhancement shamans quite a while.

We do plenty of testing here. Your contribution is apparently limited to making anecdotal claims and belittling the community in general.

Doesn't this defeat the advantage of putting IP on the main hand? Unless I overlooked some more recent discussion, everything I've read says to IP the main hand. But if the proc mechanic works as you described, then it would be better to IP the off-hand. It has more chances to proc unless for some wild reason you are popping a finisher more often than you are mutilating.

I believe I have discovered a bug, the likes of which I haven't run into before WotLK. Seemingly randomly, and exceedingly rarely, my finishers are not consuming combo points.

Example: I open with Garrote, and immediately use Slice and Dice. I then Mutilate twice, and Envenom with 5 CPs. The Envenom damage goes through, my SnD is refreshed, and I receive 25 energy from Relentless Strikes; however, my frames tell me I still have 5 CPs on my target. Sure enough, without using another Mutilate, and without any talent points in Ruthlessness, I am able to immediately Rupture for the full 5 CP duration, receiving yet another 25 energy via Relentless Strikes.

It has also occurred the other way around, with Rupture not consuming combo points. Needless to say, when this bug occurs, I see a large DPS spike, making it extremely beneficial. Also, to clarify, I have been running only (51/13/7) Mutilate Build; cannot comment on the existence in any other.

Thanks for the nice words
If I offended you (unintentionaly!) you sure offended me purposely right there, making you no better than me, infact worse.
I don't feel like I'm belittling the community. I'm saying that one gets the impression that practical testing is not as important as theories. I don't understand this point of view, when as far as I know its all theories (game mechanics aren't facts afaik) and hence can only be proved by testing with very large amounts of data.

You don't have to explain to me about the community btw, I have been following it silently with great pleasure for more than a year and have the highest respect for you guys which I also wrote before. So once again, thanks for the nice words in return.

For your info I tested the Mutilate thing for hours and found similiar numbers to what you describe. At least a 2/3 chance for the OH poison to proc (provided the same type of poison of course).

I'm not trying to prove what the actual percentage is yet, thats why I don't post any data. We could always do that, its just a matter of collecting enough data. What I'm asking is why this mechanism doesn't seem to interest anyone? It seems logical to me that it could lead to the exact conclusion that the previous poster mentions. That faster dagger should go in OH and be applied Instant Poison provided that MH dagger is capable of proc'ing sufficient Deadly Poisons.

As far as I know this mechanism has never been mentioned and is not taken into account in the spreadsheet?

Edit:
Allright, I've read my first reply again and I can see that I might have stepped on some peoples toes. Maybe it sounds worse or can be read worse than it was meant. It was meant more like a little funny remark, sorry for that.

It is not an increased chance to apply the poison. The off hand poison literally has two chances to apply when you perform Mutilate. In other words, it's possible that you get two procs of your off hand poison from a single Mutilate. (At least, this is my recollection of it without being able to log in and check right now. I know that one of the two hands had two chances to proc, I just am not 100% sure it was the off hand.)

Why it's not in the spreadsheet? 1, it's almost definitely a bug, though one that Blizzard doesn't seem likely to fix because it's been going on since they allowed shamans to Dual Wield; and 2, I always forget.

I've already reported it in this thread, and choumarin confirmed it's been happening to him too.

I have absolutely no idea what is triggering it. Seems completely random. It's not affected by any raid buff because I've run into it in the Stormwind Dummy or in solo situations. Maybe it's a malfunctioning talent?

Aha! See, this is why I asked in the first place long time ago. To seek help from people who are cleverer and more experienced than me. I didn't see it as a bug, I just figured it was the way it worked and it puzled me why noone cared.
Although it makes perfect sense now that you mention it, that its just a bug.

And it turns out I was in the right thread afterall with this subject

I'm really not looking for a fight btw. I'm the most oldest, most peacefull non-pvp'ish rogue you'll ever find
And I'm sorry you called me names

If that's the case, then the fast weapon would be better in the offhand, since mutilate has a higher frequency than finishers, though they're really close. With a 55% crit rate per hand on mutilate, you have an 80% chance of either hand critting, and a 60% proc on ruthlessness gives you a 4 cp finisher from 1 mutilate 50% of the time, otherwise you'll have to mutilate again before performing a finisher.

That means on average you'll perform 50% more mutilates than finishers.

With a mutilate to finisher ratio of 1.5, the extra mh procs from finishers would even out with 2/3 of the extra oh mutilate procs, so that would leave 33% more procs in the off hand than the main hand.

I spec'd into MP in the middle of a raid yesterday, and the WWS's do not reflect a 12% increased crit chance from previous encounters. This could however be due to other 3% crit buffs (Ret Pally, for example) overwriting my own or taking precedence after an envenom.

Not intending this as 100% proof as a target dummy would surely be the place to test, just offering anecdotal evidence from a 25man raid with more variables.

To add to your statement, Leto, this would be further increased by the also higher total mutilate damage from people putting their harder hitting dagger back in the main hand where it doesn't suffer from the DW penalty.

I'd really like to see this tested once the servers come up to find out if it's still occuring. If so, bug or not, it would be foolish to do without on the assumption that it may be 'fixed' soon. After all, it's easier to swap weapons back around than to drop the fifty gold to respec out of Master Poisoner, which I'll be doing today.

Just as an addendum to this, in response to Repsej...

A lot of things that need to be tested do get tested, this is how things like enchant/trinket proc rates, ICDs, and the like are solidified. But the problem is that all of these tests need huge sample sizes, you're talking about 5k swings to get within an acceptable standard deviation of actual values. Running these tests is time-consuming, and typically you can't run more than a couple at once, depending on overlap. Things like this, where there merits testing, does get testing extensively.

For the Master Poisoner bug, no one bothered to extensively test the crit rate because to be honest, it didn't merit testing based on how the implementation was perceived to be. It was a shared raid buff with Totem of Wrath and Heart of the Crusader. I probably ran the most Naxx 25s out of any other Rogues in Beta, and for the vast majority of them I wasn't even specced MP because I had coverage of the buff, and wanted to run Turn the Tables instead to see what my theoretical DPS cap was. I had no idea MP was bugged, because I didn't think to test it.

None of the major theorycrafters, past or present, just sit on their spreadsheets and come up with formulas and not verify them. Most of us are in serious raiding guilds and spend a lot of time optimizing our DPS, and take a lot of pride in things like winning DPS charts. Theorycrafting is an extension of that, to maximize our in-game performance. Theorycrafting is not an extension of the Blizzard QA department. If we wanted full coverage on testing every single talent to make sure it worked as intended, we'd have to test it at every point level, and literally spend hundreds of man hours to get even a semblance of useful information.

So what did happen was, when someone reported "hey I think MP is bugged," people ran over to the test dummy and very quickly verified it was in fact bugged, and Blizzard promptly hotfixed it. There was no shadow council of Rogue theorycrafters conspiring to not tell anyone of the bug so we could exploit it. That's pretty silly.

As for why don't spreadsheets take into account things which are clearly bugs, that's up to the spreadsheet implementors. Keeping a spreadsheet up-to-date is no small task, and a lot of times if it's something that's clearly going to get fixed, it's not worth the time to implement it.

Finally, I'm glad if this bug is in fact fixed, because I hate running Eviscerate as my finisher with a Mutilate cycle . And that means I can drop MP and go back to Turn the Tables.

Well, you can't exactly bypass Overkill if you're Mutilate :P.

I have noticed this on some occasions as well. I'd have to believe it's pretty random though, because I do an Overkill finisher at the start of almost every fight, and I rarely see this occur.

A very good point that I forgot about halfway through a long day with a horrifyingly-aggressive workplace web-filter.

I've been somewhat lazy about overkill so far, but it strikes me that it occurs more frequently when I do use an overkill opener.

Have any feral druids experienced this in cat-form?

I shouldn't waste more of your time with personal matters, but once again: I didn't mean it like that. Maybe its just a language thing or an unfortunate use of words. I didn't mean to "attack" in an unfriendly way, I meant to "tease" you guys. Enough about that. Sorry once again (and for the last time)
And for the record I have asked before the way you describe and been ignored. At least this time I got a response

Sounds to me that the Mutilate-double-poison bug is that the Mutilate attack itself has a chance to proc poison, and then each weapon has a chance to proc poison. The game didn't ship with double-weapon strikes, so they had to splice it into existing game mechanics. The result is a single attack whose effect is not damage, but rather two additional attacks. I think the combat log used to show it this way, and while it may not appear so anymore it's probably working that way "behind the scenes." Why it would be an offhand attack... I really have no clue. Legacy code for various attempts at implimenting mutilate would be my guess.

As for the whole testing thing... there are approximately forty bajillion and two mechanics in this game. You could try to test every one, and you would fail because the sun would explode. We assume things are working as advertised, until someone comes out with a screwy combat log asking "is this happening to other people too?" We have to. Most testing is reserved for resolving ambiguous wordings, and the cases where it's easier to test than to theorycraft (this threshold varies from person to person). [e] I wrote this before your reply went up. Your humility is appreciated. Sorry for the troubles.

No, it happens to me multiple times mid-raid or against dummies, far after the overkill effect.

The Master Poisoner bug seems to be fixed. A similar test yesterday (with a second Mut rogue, granted) resulted in me crit capping and getting something like 6 hits out of 1000 swings, quite a far cry from the 250ish here.

Not really in the right thread, but which damage meter addon gives the display you've got there? Just looks a bit more intuitive than the one I downloaded.

Recount

That damage meter is called "Recount" and is a wowace addon. Very nice damage meter.

So I read what Vulajin wrote about OH weapon having two chances to apply its poison, and no disrespect meant, but I decided to test it for myself, cause, you know, seeing is believing.

Procedure: I equipped two 1.8 speed daggers, to control for weapon speed, with Wound on my MH and Anesthetic poison on my OH, to control for proc rate, each being 50%. I then proceeded to to attack a level 80 training dummy, using ONLY Mutilate, along with my un-diced auto attack. After ~5mins of this Mutilate spamming. the numbers were:

69 Wound Poison applications
105 Anesthetic Poison applications

I have to say this is confirmed, as if both hands had an equal proc rate while Mutilating, the number of applications between the two should be roughly equal(this assumes, of course, that both hands have an equal proc rate from melee swings, which I am fairly certain to be the case ). Just posting this in case anyone else wanted confirmation. Don't take my word for it though, feel free to test it for yourself, I am certain you will find similar results.

Switch hands for the poisons and do it again. For all we know, it could just be a bug in the proc-rate of one of the poisons or a tooltip error.