Retesting hit table assumptions - Page 3

sirann · 12/08/08, 5:47 PM

Edited for retardation.

• Vulajin · 12/08/08, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by sirann

Which lead me to believe that Combat Potency's 20% proc chance is factoring in before the hit lands which is very mis-leading based on the tooltip.

I have no idea what you mean by this, but the tooltip is pretty clear that your off hand attacks, when successful (i.e. when they land), have a 20% chance to proc Combat Potency. In your case you landed roughly 8658 attacks and therefore expected about 20% * 8658 = 1732 Combat Potency procs, which is completely in line with your observed 1713 procs.

meneldor · 12/08/08, 10:17 PM

Have done the same tests as most people here: took off all poisons, no special attacks and just let the autoattack run for a long time on the raidboss dummy (15 min). Recorded the results with Recount.

I use a slow fist in mainhand and the papercutter dagger in offhand, 186 hit, 22 expertise and a standard combat build.

As most people here I got some suspect results: my crit is reported in the UI as 30% but on the raidboss dummy I got a recorded crit-percentage of around ~21%. With my gear etc I would assume that I was missing
somewhere around 5% in crit?
(a few percent defecit should be ok since the raidboss has more defense than my 400 weapon skill)
First I thought that the boss had resillience or something

By chance I equipped another dagger in the mainhand and suddenly my reported crit-chance in the UI dropped to 25%!
Since I have 5/5 in close combat it should not matter if I have a fist or a dagger?
When running the bossdummy test again I still get the around the same ~21% in crit as before.

Seems to be a bug that when having fist equipped in the mainhand the crit-chance is reported as beeing 5% too much?

Sorry if this is a known issue?

• Vulajin · 12/08/08, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by meneldor

Sorry if this is a known issue?

It is.

dabadguy · 12/09/08, 3:54 PM

I can confirm that this isn't just effective against bosses. I ran as a 77 rogue vs the lvl 80 practice dummy for about 4000 swings, completely naked and observed a 2.2% crit rate compared to a paper doll crit rate of 6.9%. Don't know if you want me to rerun the tests as 78 vs 80 and 79 vs 80 to simulate 80 vs 81 and 82 mobs, but just leave a response here and I'll do it.

• Vulajin · 12/09/08, 4:10 PM

Tests of the +1 and +2 level differences would be extremely helpful, provided that your weapon skill is capped at the maximum for your level in all cases. Was your weapon skill capped in this +3 test?

KraxisSingular · 12/09/08, 5:56 PM

There are now some circumstantial evidence that Focused Aim for Hunters appear to force hits, locking out crits. This is still early, but if we suffer this, Rogues might suffer a similar issue?

Look from #33 and on.

• Vulajin · 12/09/08, 6:13 PM

Not likely, since I experienced the 4.80% crit depression with a 0/0/0 talent spec.

Octaviann · 12/09/08, 6:50 PM

I can do tests against +2 as soon as I hit 78 and then against +1 when I hit 79. What addon are you using to do the tracking? I should hit 78 in less than an hour or so from now and be able to put that data up later today. What crit percentage should I aim for, or should I just not worry about it and use my normal gear and then compare the expected crit rate to the actual?

Oh, and can you train weapon skill on the Dummies?

Edit: It looks like life is interfering and I won't be able to do testing, sorry.

• Aldriana · 12/09/08, 6:55 PM

You can't level weapon skill on target dummies. I recommend the DM ogres for weapon skillups.

Octaviann · 12/09/08, 7:02 PM

I was mainly wondering so that I know whether I need to go kill stuff for a few minutes before I go do testing.

Cleptor · 12/10/08, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

You can't level weapon skill on target dummies. I recommend the DM ogres for weapon skillups.

While on the quest Securing the Bait in Sholazar Basin weapon skill points can be gained by attacking the primordial drake eggs.

FromTheAshes · 12/10/08, 7:55 AM

This may be off topic but every spreadsheet ive looked at undervalues hit rating by a ton, instead favoring agility and raw ap. My understanding of the mechanics is if you cant hit, then you most def cant crit. And even as a mutilate build with focused attacks, it seems you would see as much as a gain in extra energy from hit rating and extra crit. Am i correct in assuming this?

• Aldriana · 12/10/08, 8:08 AM

Attacks that don't indeed do less damage than ones that do. On the other hand, attacks that don't crit do less damage than those that do, and attacks with less Attack Power do less damage than those with more Attack Power. That is: all stats increase your DPS; the question is merely how much. Since figuring this out by inspection (as you're trying to do) is pretty much impossible, we use spreadsheets to model all the interactions. I assure you that all the factors you mention are included in the spreadsheets, thus we have reasonable confidence that the values in the spreadsheet are more accurate than whatever you intuition happens to say.

I'd also note that your assertion that an attack that does not hit cannot crit is misleading; in particular, increasing hit rating has no direct effect on the number of Focused Attacks procs you get - white attacks use a one-roll system, and, as such, your crit rate on white attacks is totally independant of you hit rate.

So, to summarize: you're wrong, in any of a number of different ways.

shegil · 12/10/08, 9:10 AM

I did some dummy testing and got some interesting numbers, and I thought I'd share.

I used my standard gear but I swapped out my Murder with mongoose for Omen of Ruin, putting me at these unbuffed stats:

31.52% crit
267 hitrating (8.14%)
12 expertise (104 expertise rating or 3%)

and performed 12809 attacks on the boss dummy. Out of those attacks this was my result (used recount to gather the data):

3873 (30.2%) hit
3767 (29.4%) crit
3053 (23.8%) glancing
1707 (13.3%) miss
409 (3.2%) dodge

The expected amount of crits, assuming you have a critdepression of 4.8%, would be 31,52-4.8=26.72% crit. I had 29.4% crit, a 2.68% difference. I know that the sample size isn't that big, but enough for me to get naked and go to town with the dummy again this weekend, unless someone beats me to it *hint*.