Apps

That would be why I posted my data and general methods in hopes of getting more data on it, yes. I would appreciate others interested in running that style, potentially improving upon my own play (which wouldn't be too hard) and providing more information than one lockout a week can get. It's certainly a more demanding spec than the standard hat build. Bear in mind that you are also gaining either ruthlessness or blood spatter (or both, if you took neither before) and whatever minimal gains vigor and the point in lethality offer, as well as getting full malice which is strictly superior to cqc due to applying to poisons. This is in addition, of course, to vile poisons, improved poisons, and the envenom buff itself (which I was maintaining about a 65-70% uptime on).

Zyla: "What's the functional difference between my computer breaking and getting hit by a car?"

 

hedningen

You have convinced me. The high uptime will most likely give it a big boost.
I'll test it and see if I can match your results.
If nothing else it's atleast alot less brainless then the normal rotation.

 

Dready

I've been playing HaT for a while now with the following 8/20/43 spec and it works very nicely. However, i feel like i'm missing some tools to make this spec more interesting to play and potentially add some dps/utility. So i was thinking of switching 1 point out of ruthlessness into Blade Flurry or mb even 2 points out of ruthlessness for Blade Flurry + Shadowstep. I can't figure out if these options would actually result in a dps loss or gain as it's near impossible to model HaT due to the nature of the spec. My initial thought is that if you have a party that's really good for feeding cp's (i generally have 3 hunters and 1 DK) then it might be worth the trade-off. Some insight from others that have experimented with this spec would be greatly appreciated.

 

Slaphappy

I've been running Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (currently 76) While my attack chains have to be extremely adaptable, the addition of blade flurry, filthy tricks, along with glyph of preparation allows me to pop blade flurry for just about every other trash pull (Should be better once I can add glyph of blade flurry, currently have glyph of preparation and evis, for the added crit chance). So far the issues that I've come across are as follows.

-When to burn cooldowns: Vanish for extra garrote, blade flurry to line up for extra target hits or just extra speed on boss fight, and Preparation for a quick refresh on vanish and blade flurry, Shadow Step for extra damage when energy is high and CP's maxed for Evis as well as for switching targerts in boss fights, and trinkets depending on gear.
-Adjusting attacks and finishers based on CP, energy, targets life, and number of targets left.
-And the big kicker other party members.

While I've been running this spec because of my reactive play style (due to a deep love of pvp) and that having gone from combat fists, to mutilate, to the curret HaT my dps has been constantly higher in trash fights and considerably higher in boss fights than my previous two. Concerning the three above issues:

-I've found that as I've learned WoLK's instances my cooldown timing is much better, and while a 2 point evis is hardly energy efficient, a 2 point SnD when there are still 2 trash mobs to burn allows the bursts of CP's that HaT seems to supply (despite the description claiming a 1 sec delay) a better use of energy.
- When it comes to other party members I've been doing all pug instances as I lvl and have had just about every mix and skill lvl out there but as a general trend regardless of party members the first few seconds seem to net the fewest CP procs once people get into mid rotation there is a spike in CP procs and from there a spike and lul as rotations continue finished with a final spike when target reaches low heath due to the various procs of teammates (just have to know who your teammates specs to see if this applies).
-The energy juggling isn't as hard as I first imagined but much more frustrating. Rupture is reserved for longer fights as CP's rarely come one at a time and there isn't time or energy to spend when you could be missing out on a 5 point evis esp if target is below 35%. When CP procs are low I hemo down to 35 energy (While server lag has been an Issue and even at times ISP lag, HaT doesn't seem to be bound by one sec cooldown). On boss fights I throw up high point SnD and Ruptures and Depending on CP procs Evis till target is below 35% then take rup out out and spend low CP procs (one's and two's) on SnD and the rest on Evis.
-I have considered but not excessively tested a lethality version to help with energy management and could be better in low CP proc situations Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft . With this build I would suggest Hemo Glyph instead of blade flurry and Glyph of Vigor instead of Preparation.
-In the 4/21/46 spec the one point in Malice along with the 2 in Filthy Tricks and one in Shad Step can moved around to maximize DPS depending on situation, as well as the two in slight of hand may be more use full in Dirty Tricks for sapping or Initiative for extra early CP's.
-In the 19/7/45 the one point in Filthy Tricks as well as the 3 in vile poisons can be moved around, possibly precision, or ruthlessness for extra CP's.
-While I'm not a big fan of Dagger in MH due to the lower Evis hits I would have to test a spec like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft to see if using Backstab with the added bonus to crit wich in turn is higher chance of Self Proced Cp's from HaT it may viable. I'm not on the up and up as far as weapon switching macros go or if it's possible to do some quick clicking in order to hit the big evis with fist wep in MH and maybe a hemo then try to switch out to dagger backstab.

Forgive my lack of solid numbers I'm new here and not sure whats the most accepted dps calc post WoLK (due to a break in play). Currently I've been keeping 2 up Damage Meters 5.8.5 and MinnaStats v 1.93 if one is out of date/more reliable please don't hesitate to give me some pointers so I can provide better data as I lvl. Sorry the first post is such a long one.

 

nilgambor

Yesterday raid:Patchwerk
Thaddius
Anub'Rekhan
Party: 2 rogue(Hat), 3 hunter (Survival)
I am using 8/20/43, pick up cheat death for more survival (trying to do Immortal)
Weapon:2 WD (wound both)

 

Mavanas

I can finally share a beta version of a simulation spreadsheet that I have been using to test various hypotheses regarding rogue HaT dps. Even though it is similar to two simulations I have seen on these forums, to the best of my knowldge, it is unique in modeling the stochastic processes that govern combo point generation through HaT, while giving the user control over the group setup.

The spreadsheet simulates a combat of a given length by choosing at any given point which next ability to use out of a set of predefined abilities, such as hemo, backstab, sinister strike, eviscerate, rupture, etc. The user has an ability to choose the rules defined around energy and combo points that determine the order in which these moves occur. Autoattacks occur automatically at intervals dependent on haste at the time. All hit table rolls as well as poison application rolls are implemented using Bernoulli random variables. The combat is simulated several times and average values are calculated for each setup. The spreadsheet is equiped with several easy to use macros and statistics that allow for comparison of dps and calculation of EP values while changing rogue stats, buffs, talents, dps rules, and many other variables that affect HaT dps.

I have uploaded the file to filefront at Rogue_Simulation_3.0.8a.xls Download File on FileFront. Do not forget to allow macros when you open the excel file since some of the code was written in VB for Excel. First time you use the file, I strongly recommend reading "How to Use" tab to make sure you understand how to make best use of the file. The Inputs tab is your control center from which you can run the macros to calculate dps. Other tabs allow you to adjust talents, buffs, etc.

I have extensively examined HaT dps using the simulation file above, which is loaded with a preset group that I personally ran in Naxx before. The group consists of a survival hunter, a combat rogue, and two fury warriors. WWS report was used to determine crit/sec rates and frequency of special attacks. I am aware that there definitely are better setups for HaT, and I have given the user of the file a choice of his group, so you can put in the appropriate numbers that describe your group best.

Based on the group setup, I found the following regarding HaT dps:
1. Highest DPS (while allowing for shadowstep for utility, which is common among HaT users) is attained using Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (13/14/44). The DPS with that spec was around 5,950 on average. Note that I tested it in best dps gear currently available (4 piece t7.25 + Malygos chest, DMC:Greatness, FotFF, quest neck, thrusting bands, stalk skin belt, KT cloak, surge needle ring, strong-handed ring, and footwraps of vile deceit.)
2. At this rate of combo point generation (around 1.3 per second not counting HaT procs from own abilities), rupture is definitely worth using in your rotation.
3. Hemo is used quite extensively (about 8% of your damage) to burn energy. Testing showed that hemo was best used only at 0-2 combo ppints when energy was above 60.
4. Around 30% of the damage comes from eviscerate that is best used above 90 energy and at 4-5 combo points.
5. Rupture provides about 10% of the damage, and is best used at 5 combo points.
6. SND (glyphed and talented) is best used at 3 combo points.
7. Substituting double WB and switching to backstabbing did not improve the DPS I already achieved using Calamity's and WB offhand and using hemo. It is possible that higher combo point generation can change these results, but as it stands, the gap between backstab build and hemo build was of the order of 200 dps. I tried different talent specs, including some that involved aggression and puncturing wounds in search of higher dps with daggers, but I could not improve upon my hemo HaT dps.
8. Using WP/WP is superior to DP/WP even for Calamity's in MH (note that I already implemented the new 40% SND in the latest version). It's definitely the best choice for dagger HaT.
9. Sinister strike HaT, even with glyphs and appropriately changed talents did not produce good results.
10. EP values (following pocket guide format) were as follows: ag 2, haste 1.2, apen 1.5, crit 1.3, AP 2.0, expertise 2.1, hit 2.3 below yellow cap, 1.7 below poison cap, and 1.1 above poison cap. Note that precision of EP calculation suffers most from the variability that's inherent in this type of simulation.

I will continue my analysis as well as testing the spreadsheet for robustness, and will share the results. Please keep in mind that the spreadsheet is still in it's beta version and may contain errors. If you find any bugs, please let me know, and I would greatly appreciate your help.

 

• Vulajin

This is an interesting piece of work. Thoughts off the top of my head:

- Were your crit/sec rates for the various classes determined from a single WWS parse, or from aggregating data across several WWS parses?
- Did you consider/try cycles using more low CP finishers rather than Hemorrhaging, in order to reduce the impact of using daggers, so that you could use dual Webbed Death with poisons to maximize that source of damage? How did those turn out?

(edit) - Any thought about trying to optimize/streamline the calculations now that you've got a working version of this available? This thing is pretty much a monster, 16 MB and it takes a substantial amount of time to run the simulation even once, let alone multiple times to compare gear, talents, or cycles.

 

Mavanas

It was based on a single parse two weeks ago; however, the numbers did not change significantly from the WWS report the week before it. I should have them zipped somewhere if anyone wants to take a look.

- I tried it many ways, including low CP finishers, and it was always inferior. I now understand that it relies on combo point generation to a great extent. By putting in 4 hunters in the group (which increased combo point generation to 2 per second), double WB using 8/19/44 already came out with same damage as hemo HaT, and it can probably be improved by changing dps rules in favor of eviscerate spam. DPS numbers went up to 6,750 by the way.

It's always been in the back of my mind, and I have already reduced the number of calculations where easy fixes could be made. The best way to reduce the size of the file is to either reduce the duration of the fight or to decrease the number of columns used in calculations. I can envision that all special abilities could eventually be collapsed to one set of columns, as opposed to 4 sets right now.

As a practical guide right now to reducing the running time, I would suggest playing with the number of iterations. I run the baseline case with at least 400. When I plug in a new setup, in many cases, after about 100 iterations it becomes clear that the new setup does lower damage (on a statistically significant level). At that point pressing Escape key once or twice and then pressing "End" button will interrupt the simulation and you can proceed with a new setup. If I find a superior setup, I let it run till all 400 iterations are done to make sure it's not a statistical fluke.

 

• Neto-

Could you link the WWS you used for reaching the crit/sec numbers on the spreadsheet?

 

Mavanas

The report I used as my source is Wow Web Stats

 

• Neto-

Hm, am I missing something? On the spreadsheet, the Moonkin has 0.7 or something crits per second, but looking at the WWS, it seems that the Survival Hunter had much more crits than the Moonkin, and the Survival Hunter's crits/second is 0.5 on the spreadsheet.

 

Mavanas

I put a note next to moonkin druid's record that it needs to be confirmed because the number came out to be very high. As it turned out, I added wrong numbers and the correct number for the druid was 61 crits over 159 seconds, or 0.38 (same as the prot warrior).

For the survival hunter, if you only count his yellow damage that procs HaT, you have 31 explosive shots, 22 steady shots, 6 multishots, and 1 kill shot for the hunter himself and 23 more from Dipset (his pet), counting Claw and Rake. So that's 83 crits over 159 seconds of dps, which is 0.52 crits per second as in the spreadsheet.

So I figured out where the error was and now the moonkin crit/sec is more in line with where I expected it to be. Also his time between attacks is 1.325.

I actually have not tested it yet, but I have a hypothesis regarding times between attacks statistic. Although crit/sec is a single most important characteristic that will determine the rate of combo points, the time between attacks for each member also matters. I predict higher correlation between the times to cause spikes in combo points and lower dps.

 

Tinwhisker

Quick question and maybe I missed it, but does HAT proc for each crit tick of Explosive Shot or just for the initial?

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

surrealkilla

for additional reference, here's the yellow crits per second from our last 25 man Naxx run (mostly compiled from Patchwerk, a couple from Maexxena and Rasvious)


Hunter (BM)
0.55

Hunter (Survival)
0.42

Shaman (Elem)
0.39

Paladin (Ret)
0.34

Hunter (Survival)
0.31

DK (Unholy)
0.30

Hunter (Survival)
0.30

Paladin (Holy)
0.28

Warrior (Prot)
0.27

Rogue (Muti)
0.26

DK (Blood)
0.26

Mage (Fire)
0.26

Rogue (Combat)
0.24

Warrior (Fury)
0.23

Priest (Shadow)
0.21

Druid (Balance)
0.19

Warrior (Fury)
0.17

Warrior (Fury)
0.14

Warlock (Demo)
0.13

 

• Latito

All of them are eligible for HAT procs.

 

Karpo

Can this really be true? No agression for 15% more evi damage in a HAT build focused on spamming Eviscerate?

Also do you guys think that WD+Hand of Nerub (1.4 & 1.6 speed) would do better or worse than Calamity+WD? I use hemo quite a bit directly after finishers when ive pooled energy and my hemos hit for practically nothing with Webbed Death in mainhand. But i dont know if the poison procs will outweigh the lower hemo dmg.

 

Jochan

Read carefully, the trade-off is not for SS but for Ruthlessness and Blood Spatter, because you actually use Rupture in the rotation.

 

Karpo

Thats what i meant. Blood Splatter+Ruthlessness are better then aggression then? Because from what ive heard earlier there seemed to be talk about Evi outdamaging glyphed/talented rupture when you hit about 45% crit.

 

songster

Not a chance. In a HaT spec, where the bulk of your combo points come in from outside, the main remaining limitation is the energy cost of the finisher. With 5/5 Relentless, the energy cost of a Rupture is zero. It is, quite literally, free damage, at least until you get to the point where you have so many combo points coming in that you're GCD-locked spamming Eviscerate. That was the case for bugged HaT, but isn't the case for solo HaT.

 

Jochan

Use the spreadsheet to get your answer, I lose almost 3% with Aggression instead of Blood Splatter + Ruthlessness. With dagger and backstab as combo point builder.

 

path411

I might just be understanding what you are saying, but you seem to be missing the biggest benefit from hunters/DKs. Their pet attacks are on a different 1s cooldown then any other class, meaning they can basically give 2 combo points a second. I'd assume simply adding 4 more member slots in your inputs and allowing the user to input pets individually, would be the easiest way to do this.

I would recommend trying to average several parses, with many different players/guilds. In my own parses I'm noticing for some classes, many more crits/sec than you have reported. My other suggestion, would try using other classes' modeling/simulations to develop your crit/sec numbers.

 

Mavanas

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand what you talking about with pets. You can see it from my calculations. I know they are on a separate cooldown timer, that's why the crit/sec numbers for hunters are almost twice higher than any other class. The 0.52 crit/sec for the survival hunter in that parse already includes his pet, so the number is much more modest than what you alluding to by saying "they can basically give 2 combo points a second." I know BM hunters can have higher crit rates, but I think they are of the order of 0.65 in top gear, including pets (just remember parsing a WWS before the hunter respecced to survival, but don't take my word for it). Also do not expect high crit/sec rates from DK's. It's true they have pets, but their own crit rates are low. You can see in the table I have that a DK and his ghoul together did 0.28 crits per second, and that's a very well geared unholy DK (granted blood-specced DK's can do better, but I do not see many around anymore).

I agree with everyone who is suggesting that using crit/sec numbers from several parses would be more reliable. However the point of my work is not to establish what the most applicable crit rates for each class are. We have a large community that can help me establish these numbers. Arguably if we are to reach any concensus, we need to hold the gear level, pet types and specs constant (and hope players' skill and rotations are close enough).

Just like with any other DPS spreadsheets, there are two main uses for this one. One is to figure out what's the best gear, rotation, and spec for the gear and group that you currently have, or can have soon. For that you need to collect the data from your own raids, from the group you are typically running with, then plug in you current gear and calculate your DPS using the spreadsheet to determine the best spec, dps rules and immediate gear upgrades. It's informative to some extent, but not very interesting to everyone else from the standpoint of theorycrafting and comparing with other specs.

The other use of the spreadsheet is to determine "ideal" dps. For that you want to plug in best in slot items, and determine the crit/sec rates of best group members (arguably four BM hunters) who are also in their best in slot items and using best suited pets. Another good approach is to determine "reasonable" dps, which will take into account that it is unlikely to have 4 BM spec hunters in your group, first of all because your guild may not even have 4 hunters in best in slot gear to put in your group, second because BM spec is no longer dominant, so you have to live with the crit rates of survival hunters, and third because you might have to leave a spot for another HaT rogue. "Reasonable" group is up for dispute, but I want to focus my efforts on developing a good tool to measure DPS for when we have proper crit rates to plug in.

Path411 does raise a good point that I can test. What's the difference in dps if I separate the pet into a stand alone entity with his own crit rate and attack speed as opposed to lumping it with the hunter. I will let you know. Personally I think the effect is not going to be profound since in my current implementation I already waive the 1 sec cooldown for hunters because I understand that 0.7 attacks per second that I obtained from the parses includes the pet attacks.

I also have a new version of the spreadsheet that has faster run speed as I am trying to take Vulajin's suggestions into account. I am testing it right now and checking for bugs, and will have it available soon.

 

Guargumi

i use 6/21/44, and what is weapons is better?
Currently use Omen of Ruin MH and Webbed Dead OH, maybe Webbed Death MH and Hand of Nerub is better?

 

Blizisyimhot

Just a quick feature request I suppose if you haven't included it already. Currently you have Shadowstep before you Rupture if Shadowstep is up. Would it be possible to toss in an option to Shadowstep Eviscerate if Shadowstep is up?. Preferrably an option to set how many combo points you would use in the Shadowstep Eviscerate, if not a default Shadowstep Eviscerate only at 5 combo points would be great. Thanks

 

Erinzell

I think what you're missing here as far as why this build leans so heavily on eviscerate is that you eventually pass a point of inflection where there is no button you can possibly push that will do more damage than eviscerate. Rupture costs the same (0 energy with 5/5 relentless strikes), but will never outpace your eviscerate damage-- even if there is target switching, you still have to push a button to get the damage onto the mob. With this logic in mind, and having the gear you should have after farming raid content for months now, there is no reason to use any finisher except eviscerate (except SnD, when it needs to be refreshed).